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Burnt Toast by Virginia Sole-Smith
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An anti-diet, fat positive community about body liberation. And good snacks.
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115 episoade
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An anti-diet, fat positive community about body liberation. And good snacks.
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115 episoade
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×You’re listening to Burnt Toast! I’m Virginia Sole-Smith, and today my guest is . Frankie is an award-winning journalist whose work sits at the intersection of sports, gender and culture. They are the co-author of Hail Mary, the rise and fall of the National Women’s Football League , and their writing has been featured in The New York Times , Sports Illustrated , The Atlantic and more. Frankie also writes , a newsletter about queer sports and pop culture, which I consider a must-subscribe. If you have been remotely following the issues of trans women in sports, you likely already know how well Frankie calls out that bias and discrimination. As Frankie points out, the way bodies are policed and controlled in the sports world is really just a microcosm of how the bodies of queer, trans, and otherwise marginalized folks are being policed and controlled throughout our culture right now. So even if you think you don’t care about sports, I promise you’ll care about this conversation. If you find today’s episode valuable, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription ! Guest interviews are always free on Burnt Toast, but paid subscriptions enable us to pay guests for their time, labor and expertise. (This is extremely rare in the world of podcasting, but key to centering marginalized voices!) Subscribe now PS. You can always listen to this pod right here in your email, where you’ll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Stitcher , and/or Pocket Casts ! And please tap the heart on this post — likes are one of the biggest drivers of traffic from Substack’s Notes, so that’s a super easy, free way to support the show! Episode 178 Transcript Frankie My name is Frankie de la Cretaz. I am an independent journalist, and my work mostly sits at the intersection of sports, gender, and culture. Virginia Even if you identify as a deeply un-athletic and not-sports-fluent person, such as myself, Frankie’s work will make you understand sports in a whole new way—and how much it intersects with politics, culture, everything else that’s going on. So everyone needs to subscribe to . Frankie I appreciate that. I actually consider myself someone who writes about sports for people who don’t think they care about sports , so I’m glad that’s coming across. Virginia We’re going to talk about something that you’ve been writing about for a long time, which is the potential of sports to be fat positive, and the many barriers in place there. But before we go there: I want to acknowledge we are having this conversation a day after the inauguration. It’s going to drop about a week out from the inauguration. It’s a rough time in America right now. And one of Trump’s first presidential actions was to publish an executive order that I have had to read three or four times because it is so jarring to see such anti-trans, misogynist language on the White House website. So Frankie, how are you? Where are we? How are you doing? Frankie I mean, as a trans person, generally, this sucks. But as a journalist who has been documenting the rise of transphobia and anti-trans rhetoric in this country, I’m not surprised. We have been saying for a while that the goal of anti-trans sport legislation is actually this, what we’re seeing—which is to legislate trans people out of existence . This was the ultimate goal of the rightwing anti-trans groups that pushed all of this legislation that now exists in over half of the states Because sports was the place where they could make trans people, and trans women in particular, seem threatening. They could couch it in language around fairness, and advantage, and the real marginalization that cis women, and women in general, have faced over time. So sports became the acceptable place for prejudice and discrimination to happen. But the thing is, once you make trans people or any group of people a threat in one arena, it becomes much easier to make them a threat in other arenas. So a lot of these bills attempted to redefine biological sex. A lot of states that passed these anti-trans sports bills went on to pass more extreme anti-trans legislation against healthcare and education and things like that. So I think there’s this very direct link from the attack on trans people in sports to what we’re seeing now. The other thing I will mention is the reason that so many people were nervous about the bill that the House just passed —which is banning trans women and girls from girls’ school sports—is that bill also has language that defines gender as binary, as one or the other. And we could see the potential for that language to be broadened to all areas of life. And that is what we’re seeing. Leave a comment Virginia That’s what this executive order clearly intends to do. It’s really chilling. And as a cis woman, it makes my skin crawl the way the language is framed as if it is protecting fragile women and girls. As if a president who is a sexual predator and an anti-choice administration has our best interests at heart. Frankie Yes, and I think that’s what makes me as angry as it does, how they have leveraged real marginalization, real harm, real oppression, that women have faced in our society. Instead of pointing the finger at the patriarchy and agents of the patriarchy—often that is cis men—they point the finger at trans women and girls. Even though trans women and girls are actually the most vulnerable and the most likely to be victims of violence. This prevents actual progress for women as a whole, because it pits these two marginalized groups against each other. This has been a really effective strategy of the anti-trans movement. Instead of allowing cis women to see their own protection and freedom as tied up with trans women, and seeing cis women and trans women as part of the same fight, they have pitted them against each other, and it has endangered both groups even more. Virginia It’s dangerous, and it’s just frankly insulting. It’s just like, Trump?? Really?? This known rapist is a heroic protector of women?? I can’t. It’s wild. But obviously, we know there are plenty of women who voted for him. So we have a lot of work to do. But I appreciate you giving us that larger context and helping people understand why it is so important to talk about trans rights in sports, and how that that is the stepping stone that leads to where we are now. Frankie I’ve called it “gateway legislation.” I know that’s making light of something that’s quite serious, but really, the sports legislation has served as that. Because it’s “just sports,” a lot of people didn’t pay attention until it was much too late. Share Virginia Well, not to pivot from one depressing topic to another depressing topic— Frankie Welcome to my beat, Virginia. Virginia This is where we are! But a story you’ve been following that I really want to talk to you about is the rise of weight loss drug advertising during sports events , specifically during WNBA and women’s college basketball. What is going on here? Frankie Great question. Just this past weekend I was watching the new women’s basketball league, Unrivaled , which is so exciting. Until I got an ad for Hers injectable weight loss medication right in the middle. And I was like, Oh, we are continuing the trend, I see. I think there are a few reasons that this happens. I think there’s an assumption that people who watch sports, and particularly women who watch sports, are going to be more health conscious than the average person. And, as you know very well, in our culture, we associate health with thinness. For a long time, coverage of women’s sports was folded into fitness coverage , like Health , Women’s Health , and Fitness —those kinds of magazines. And when we talk about fitness culture, we also are talking about these elements of diet culture and beauty culture that come with it. On top of that, we have this massive boom in women’s sports in terms of funding and sponsorships. Audiences are growing massively. Seemingly every month they’re telling us that there’s hundreds of thousands more people watching women’s sports than there were even like last month. So brands love this, right? They’re desperate to cash in on this audience. So it’s Hers, which is specifically marketed for women, that has this very feminine advertising. Ro is another one that markets explicitly for women. So there’s this insidious thing happening where in women’s sports, we have this narrative of women’s empowerment and “by women for women,” and the way we talk about them. And then you’ve got this women’s medication that continues on this theme. I think all of that is coming together to really make women’s sporting events an appealing place for these drugs to market themselves. Subscribe now Virginia It does really make a sick kind of sense when you lay it out like that. I spent the first decade or so of my career in women’s magazines and writing for places like Self and Fitness , and we regularly featured women athletes, but asked them about their beauty routine and their diet, you know? It was very much like, let’s take this athlete and let’s make sure we talk about her the same way we talk about an actress or a pop star. We want to know her beauty work. We want to know her diet secret. We want to know how she looks so great. So it completely makes sense to take that same framing which was always really patronizing towards these world class athletes, not at all on par with the kinds of questions male athletes get asked, and then assume that the audience is like, “Well, I want to look like her. I need the weight loss drug as well.” Frankie The other piece that’s quite paternalistic is the “see her, be her” theme. This is where we position these pro women athletes as role models for the next generation and as inspiration for little girls. And research has shown that girls ages 12 to 18, are the fastest growing market and viewership for women’s sports. So when you add in the fact that they’re being exposed to these ads, that’s cause for concern, right? Because this is the age group where they’re going to be the most vulnerable to eating disorders. Use of weight loss medications among this age group is also skyrocketing right now. Sometimes that’s for the medical conditions that these medications are designed to treat. But often it’s just because teenage girls who are fat are dealing with so much bullying because of the culture that we live in. So they’re being prescribed these drugs for weight loss. They are the fastest growing age group for these drugs. So these ads feel incredibly insidious. They’re preying on our pre-existing culturally ingrained body anxiety. They’re doing so during these sporting events where we assume that the athletes on the field or the court are able to do what they do— this is implied— because they are in “peak shape.” They are not fat, right? So it’s all just, really icky. Virginia Like, really deeply icky. Frankie I always want to be really clear that the ads that we’re talking about here, they’re not talking about diabetes as the presenting condition. They’re not talking about some other co-morbid or coexisting condition. They’re talking about being fat as the presenting condition. They’re talking about weight loss as the thing they are selling. So this is the difference between marketing for an actual medical condition that these drugs might treat and marketing by fear-mongering about body size. Virginia Yes, super important. I appreciate you teasing that out. Leave a comment It feels like we need to talk about Ilona Maher a little bit in all of this, because she is a peak example of this, of the role model athlete who is inspiring girls. And, you know, I have felt complicated about her. She’s delightful. She has been really outspoken about celebrating that she’s in a bigger body. She is by no means fat. But she’s tall and muscular, and not, kind of, normative, I guess? By some measures? And she did that reel that went viral over the summer, challenging body mass index. So I think a lot of folks spent last summer thinking she represents this major positive sea change for how we think about women’s bodies in sports. But as you and I have discussed on the sidelines, we don’t quite see it this way. Frankie There’s a world in which she could be representing a sea change, but that’s not the world we live in. I feel kind of bad that Ilona Maher gets caught up in this discussion, because I think it’s emblematic of what happens when we talk about individual people rather than systemic issues. She is being used as an example, perhaps unfairly, right? But I think it’s important because she’s straight and she’s white and she’s cis and her body is acceptable, because of what it can do in a sporting context. I think we’ll probably talk a little bit more about this idea as we keep talking about fatphobia in sports. But her body is acceptable because it otherwise conforms to a lot of traditional ideas of femininity. She wears lipstick, and she was on Dancing with the Stars. She’s joked that she wants to be the next Bachelorette, which is really playing up that straightness. Ben Watts/Sports Illustrated source here . Virginia The hair. She’s got very Pretty Girl Hair, for sure. Frankie And that’s fantastic. Ilona Maher is an example of someone who can be both athletic and feminine. But what about athletes who aren’t feminine? Where do they fit in here? We don’t celebrate them in the same way. But also: What choice does Ilona Maher really have here? During the Olympics, she was the subject of speculation over her gender because of her presumed “masculine” qualities. We’re in a time of trans investigations in sports, where we are questioning the gender of women athletes who don’t fit into certain ideas of femininity. So what option does she really have, aside from leaning into that femininity? Especially if she wants to continue to get sponsorships and recognition. So she’s kind of been backed into an impossible corner here. And at the same time, she’s upholding a lot of these really oppressive ideas of femininity. But, through no fault of her own, either. And again, that’s where I think we really run into trouble, is upholding one particular person as emblematic of a systemic change, or a systemic issue, because it’s impossible. Virginia It’s impossible. She kind of can’t get it right. Share Frankie So this is less about actually Ilona Maher and more about the way that culturally, we have responded to her. She’s not the first, or only, woman athlete to put out social media content that challenges beauty norms or body norms. So why is the athlete that we’ve chosen to rally behind the one who is white and straight and cis and all of these more normative factors? There’s a reason that she is the chosen one. Virginia Just to go back to the weight loss commercials piece of it for a second, I realized we didn’t talk about them in the context of men’s sports. Are we not seeing the same trend there in terms of this advertising to male audiences? Frankie Not as far as I can tell. I think what’s important to note here is most of the time, it’s not the leagues who are accepting these commercials. This is different than a team sponsorship. Eli Lilly, who makes a couple of these drugs, is a patch sponsor for the Indiana Fever. The Minnesota Lynx have a local partnership with this weight loss program that their coach is an ambassador for. Those are intentional choices. But when we’re talking specifically about these commercials airing during games, they’re purchased through buying ad inventory. I have checked with the league, and the companies, and this is how they are purchased. So the league doesn’t actually really have the power here to decide whether to accept these ads. The brands choose what events they want to market to based on the demographics of the audiences for those events. This is probably why we’re not seeing that—even though women do watch men’s sports almost equally. Especially the NFL. Over 50 percent of the NFL fans are women. But people are prejudiced and don’t realize that, so we’re not seeing quite that same shift. But there’s something else happening that I think makes women’s sports particularly appealing to advertisers. These leagues present themselves as progressive and committed to gender equality and empowerment and brands actually find that really appealing. They will choose to align with these brands because it can make them look like they’re more committed to these things, too. Not only that, but when women athletes are abrand ambassadors, there’s so much more engagement from consumers. I found this number that I thought was wild, and I wanted to share it because I think this is really important. I think it highlights how dangerous it is that these ads are being able to run during these events: 44 percent of WNBA fans have visited a brand’s website after seeing WNBA sponsorships during a game . Virginia Oh my God. Frankie And 28 percent have bought from a sponsoring brand. Virginia That’s wild. Especially when you consider that you’re watching a show with your eyeballs, and seeing the ad on your TV, and then you have to get out your phone and go to the website. That’s multiple steps people are taking to engage like that. Leave a comment Frankie I’ve also seen something like the three athletes who are most likely to convert consumers are all Black women: Simone Biles, Serena Williams, and Angel Reese. Virginia Interesting. Frankie People trust women athletes because of that role model thing. They trust that they wouldn’t align with a brand who didn’t speak to their values in some way. So they’re more likely to buy things when a woman or a women’s sports league told them that it was okay. Virginia I’m holding my head in my hands because it’s so much darker even than I realized. So okay, we turn these women athletes into our role models. They have to lead the children into the future. And then the weight loss companies are, like, “Perfect! We too would like to be aligned with your progressive values.” Frankie Yes, it’s incredible. They’re like, “We hired this new female commissioner. Oh no, we have allegations of workplace harassment that won’t stop .” Women’s leagues! Feminism! Subscribe now Virginia Oh, my God. It’s so dark. It’s so dark. So that explains why we’re not seeing the same type of advertising at the NFL games. Not that they wouldn’t, because obviously, they’ll follow the women wherever they find them. Frankie They will. And I guess there’s something interesting, too, now that I’ve brought up the NFL, and I think this is related to to things that we’re going to continue to talk about. But you’re much more likely to see fat football players than you are fat basketball players. Like, body diversity exists in basketball, but it’s usually in terms of height, right? You have the players that play in the center, who are 6’ 8” and 6’ 9” and the guards shooting from the perimeter are 5’ 8”. Like, you see that kind of body diversity a lot more. But in a game like football, there’s a lot more body diversity in size, in terms of weight. They don’t talk about football players’ bodies as being lithe. So that may also impact where pharmaceutical companies want to advertise weight loss drugs. Virginia Yeah, so let’s go there a little bit, because I would love to have you talk more about how anti-fatness shows up in sports coverage and discourse, even in these sports where we do see larger bodies centered, like football, like rugby. But there’s still a larger anti-fat narrative coming in. Frankie Totally, right? Because, we just, as a culture, have ideas about who sports are for: Thin people. Which kinds of bodies can be good at sports: Thin bodies. We continue to exclude fat people from narratives about sports, despite the fact that fat people are participating, have participated, and are often excelling at all levels of sport. So these cultural ideas discourage people who are not thin from getting involved in sports at all. But they are also part of how and why eating disorders are so prevalent among athletes. Even in terms of media coverage and how there’s this anti-fat bias woven into it. I think we can go back to the Ilona Maher discussion, right? Because I mentioned her sponsorships. So there’s a lot of things that prevent athletes from getting sponsorships. And in women’s sports, athletes who are more masculine presenting are less likely to get these monies and brand sponsorships. Share But even if you look at men’s sports, we see disparities. Take football. How often do you see a lineman being the face of a team or the face on the Gatorade bottle? That spotlight ges to the quarterback or the running back or the wide receiver. Their contracts with the NFL are also worth more than lineman contracts. And linemen are more likely to play a much shorter time, and to deal with head injuries later in life. So they actually might need the money more. And that running back doesn’t score without the lineman blocking and creating the hole for him to run through. The quarterback doesn’t have time to complete the pass if the linemen don’t do their job. So they’re this really huge part of the success of the players who do get the spotlight, but they don’t get the same kind of attention. And that, to me, is anti-fat bias in action. We don’t think of those men as athletes or as the people we want to represent as the pinnacle of athleticism because of what their bodies look like. Virginia And you will see their weight casually referenced all the time. The fact that they are so big gets invoked in almost a tokenistic way. Frankie Yes, I think about this all the time. I don’t know if people remember this baseball player, his name is Prince Fielder—who is so hot, by the way! I always had a huge crush on him. Virginia Googling now. Frankie Google his photos from the ESPN Body Issue . Prince Fielder in the ESPN Body Issue Because he is a bigger guy who did these photos for the ESPN Body Issue , and the way they were talked about was kind of fascinating. Because the thing that ESPN Body Issue has always done really well—and something I’ve always appreciated about it—is it has done a really good job of representing the diversity of athlete bodies. And Prince Fielder is a baseball player who is much bigger than most of the people that we associate with being baseball players—unless they’re catchers, right? But it was almost like he was a curiosity. People were making fun of the fact that he was featured in this issue. Because men who are fat can be the butt of jokes. So a lot of times, male athletes who are bigger have nicknames about how fat they are, and it’s supposed to be an endearment or a positive thing, but we don’t see that happen with women athletes in the same way. This is the way that anti-fatness shows up for men. Leave a comment Virginia I have a childhood memory of my dad talking about a football player that everyone called “The Fridge” and I can’t remember what team he was on. But he had that name because he was as big as a fridge. That was the joke. And when you just think about that afterwards, it’s like, wow, that’s that’s not a nice name. Frankie Or they’re compared to their smaller teammates. Like, “Can you believe these people are on the same team?” There’s also that inspiration porn thing, which happens in disability coverage too. “Look, even a fat person can be good at this thing!” Rather than just getting treated and respected as the athletes that they are. These are ways that we talk about athletes who are in bodies that aren’t thin, or are maybe outliers in terms of [the body norms of] their sport. They’re seen as exceptions, and they don’t get the same level of respect and attention. Virginia The Fridge’s real name is William Perry. I had to google it, just so we don’t only refer to him by a harmful nickname. And he was a defensive lineman for the Chicago Bears back in the 80s, and later played for the Philadelphia Eagles. William Perry. Photo by Stephen Dunn, Getty Images [ Post-recording note: William Perry did enjoy quite a bit of celebrity, and sponsorship deals, during his football career, though the media relentlessly reported on his weight and made fat jokes about him. But to Frankie’s point about size-related discrepancies in football contracts and other earning potential, Sports Illustrated reported in 2000 that Perry was working as a brick layer, and in 2016, reported on Perry’s financial debts, substance abuse struggles, and other health problems; at the time he was held in a Britney Spears-style conservatorship by his brother. CW on both links for significant fatphobia.] Share Frankie So I mentioned my book, right? For people that aren’t familiar with it, the National Women’s Football League existed in the 1970s and 1980s. The coverage, though, really could have been written today. It was often really shocking to me how little has changed. But one of the things they would do because, again, we’re talking about a sport like football, where there is a wide variety in the size of the bodies that are going to be on the field. And one of the teams had this woman, her name was Bobbie Grant. Her nickname was SuperSugar, and she was in a band. She was a frontperson, that was her stage name. Virginia That’s amazing. Frankie And she weighed over 300 pounds, and was a lineman. And I know how much she weighed because the newspapers wanted to tell us all the time. And then they would put the weight of the smaller women next to her. You and your listeners are probably familiar with the trope of the headless fattie, right? Those dehumanizing photographs where the media just photographs their body. So Bobbie Grant would often be photographed from behind, sitting on the bench, so you actually couldn’t see her face. Or she’d be in a side by side with the beautiful, thin quarterback. And Bobbie was a Black woman, too. So a lot of these things came into play, right? But this is how the media was talking about her. Instead of being like, “This woman is an incredible lineman and is giving her team an advantage because they have Bobbie Grant and no one else does.” And so we can see that narrative, too. Leave a comment Virginia It’s fascinating, and it’s really, I think, deflating. I think about this from the perspective of parents putting kids in sports. And I think often, if you have a kid in a bigger body, you’re hoping they’re going to find a safe place in one of these sports where a larger body is an asset . So to understand that actually, they’re still going to encounter this, and it’s going to play out slightly differently than if your kid in a bigger body was trying to be a ballerina, but it’s still going to come up—that’s really frustrating. Frankie Yeah, and even sports that have weight classes, that have heavyweight classes, whether it’s wrestling or boxing, they still have weight limits that they often have to adhere to. And so still, there’s a lot of that really harmful dieting or the equivalent of exercise bulimia type behavior that happens around those sports even though there are weight classes. Virginia I’ll link back to an episode we did last year, which was an excerpt from Fat Talk , my chapter on sports, where we get into a lot of how the weight classes and the pressure to have the quote right body for the sport impacts kids. And it includes some strategies for how to talk to your kids about this. For anyone listening to this and feeling sort of panicked, but it is. It’s a really, really difficult thing to navigate. Is there anything else you want to add, about how this anti-fatness intersects with the anti-trans stuff, around how we police athletes, bodies, and especially in women’s sports? Frankie You and your listeners know that fatphobia in sports is coming from the fact that we live in a fatphobic society. But that fatphobia often intersects with, and is rooted in, transphobia and anti-Blackness, right? The beauty standards that idealize thinness are based on white supremacy. And those same beauty standards are going to negatively impact trans athletes, Black athletes, and other marginalized athletes. And we’ve talked about Ilona Maher and the way she is feminine, a particular way that doesn’t fully protect her from some of these questions, but insulates her a little bit. Ilona Maher. Kevin Mazur, Getty Images. For athletes who are both fat and trans, they’re going to have these intersecting challenges, right? If they’re good at their sport, suddenly it’s because they have an unfair advantage because they’re trans, right? I interviewed a transfeminine power lifter. Her name is Jaycee Cooper. She’s actually suing the state of Minnesota currently because she was banned from women’s powerlifting. But she talked about how, when she has a good competition, or does well, it’s not because she’s a good power lifter, it’s because she has an unfair advantage, because she’s trans. And if she has a doesn’t do well, and her transness isn’t a factor, she is often subjected to comments that might be rooted in weight stigma. Virginia So it’s coming from both directions. Well, it’s really from the same direction. But they’re going to hit both boxes if they can. Share Is there giving you hope right now, any any slivers of progress that you’re seeing? Because as you’ve said, there is so much potential for sports to be truly inclusive. But how do we get there, Frankie? Frankie There is so much potential, right? Like we’ve named so many different ways a larger body can be an asset in certain sports. And this can allow people and women in particular, whose bodies are hyper-visible and hyper-policed in other aspects of their lives, to find pride in what their body can do, to find belonging and contribute to a team. When I was reporting my book, I saw this happen over and over again. Women who played football thought about their bodies differently after being on the football field. They took that into other areas of their life. They could walk with their chin held high because they knew that whatever society thought about their body, they knew differently. They felt good about themselves. So I think that there’s so much potential there. I think a lot about the conversations happening in sports like gymnastics, post the Karolyis (longtime coaches of the U.S. national team, known for their abusive practices). There are still these very specific body standards, but they are shifting. You’re having people say things like, “It turns out having muscle and eating food for energy actually makes you a better athlete.” Virginia Who would have thought. Frankie I hate that that is progress, but it is. Virginia That’s where we are. That is progress. Frankie So I hope this continues. I think on a purely recreational level, there are clubs and things that exist, whether it’s just spaces that are going to be inclusive or that are designed specifically for people in fat bodies to participate in a sport or an athletic endeavor without being stigmatized or feeling nervous about having to do that. Those are things that exist. Subscribe now I think, as we navigate this progress and figure out how we can not just be inclusive, but actively fat positive, I think we really need to be aware of not falling into Good Fatty tropes . Like, you might be fat, but it’s okay because you’re good at sport. We’re assigning this moralism to that. So I think that’s the line that we have to walk when we have these conversations, too. Virginia No one has a moral obligation to perform athleticism just because they’re in a bigger body. It’s more about getting doors open so people who have wanted to do that, who haven’t been able to, are in the room now. Frankie Right, and the idea that your size doesn’t preclude you from being athletic, but also it’s okay if you’re not athletic, you can do a sport and be terrible at it and find joy in it and that’s pretty, pretty great. Virginia That’s so important. Leave a comment Butter Frankie So I have been watching season 3 of The Traitors , which just started. Are you familiar with The Traitors ? Virginia I know nothing. Frankie So it’s a competition reality show where a bunch of reality stars from other networks live in a castle and it’s hosted by Alan Cumming, in high camp, and very Scottish. There are always a lot of queer people, which I really, really love. And I’m a huge nerd about MTV’s The Challenge for anyone that remembers The Real World and Road Rules . The Challenge , I’m going to credit with inventing competition reality television. But it also has like what you see in Housewives franchises, where there are storylines from season to season, because the same people keep coming back. Virginia That’s satisfying. Frankie So it’s a combination of the two main kinds of reality shows, but it pre-existed all of them. And there have been OG Challenge cast members. They’ve done like 20 seasons of the show. But I consider the people who do The Challenge regularly to be pro athletes in a way, because it’s a physical competition show. But they’re getting older, and their bodies can’t do that anymore, and some of them are transitioning to these other shows. So I watched Season Two, because my favorite Challenge crush, CT, who they called Castle Daddy , was on it. And no one had heard of The Challenge . Nobody knew who The Challenge players were. And they won that show. They won that season. And they gave interviews afterwards like, “We invented the genre, and we were going to show people that we invented the genre.” So there’s a Challenger again in the cast this season. And then there are always a ton of queer people. And I just love queer people being campy and kind of making a mess . So that is what I am enjoying and thinking way, way too much about, like, narrative and dynamics on reality TV. Virginia I mean, that sounds like the perfect place for your brain to be, especially this week. That’s deeply comforting and absorbing in exactly the right way. Frankie I can make anything sports, apparently. Reality TV is sports. Virginia It’s very impressive. I’ll do a TV Butter as well, which is my 11-year-old and I are watching Schitt’s Creek right now. It’s her first time watching it. I’m re-watching it, I mean, it’s not news to say that’s an amazing show, but it’s such an amazing show, and it’s really fun to watch with a middle schooler. She’s really perfecting her sarcasm, trying to banter back like David and Alexis. So it’s very good for honing those skills, which I think is important in sixth grade. And, you know, it’s obviously amazing queer rep. David and Patrick are our love story for the ages. Frankie It is a great show. And every time I watch it, there are so many jokes layered in it. Like, it gets better. Virginia It gets better. Frankie I also just very much feel like David is… My gender is very David Rose-coded. Virginia I see that. I fully support that. I mean, he’s amazing. My other rec about it is if you are parenting a sometimes angsty tween, quoting Moira Rose at her is a great way to cut through some of the nonsense.. And then we both laugh and we move on. It’s good stuff. Well, Frankie, thank you. This was such a delight. I appreciate everything you’re doing. Tell folks where we can find you and how we can support you. Frankie The easiest way to find me is my newsletter . And then I am TheFrankieDLC on Instagram and Blue Sky. I am, like many of us, slowly deleting many social media accounts. So I would definitely say the newsletter is the best place, because I also share the things I publish elsewhere there as well. Virginia Fantastic. Thank you for being here! Subscribe now The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram ) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus , and Big Undies . The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe . Our theme music is by Farideh . Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism! Share…
You’re listening to Burnt Toast! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay , and it’s time for your January Indulgence Gospel. It’s time for another mailbag episode, so we’ll be answering questions like: ⭐️ Is it anti-fatness to care that your partner eats faster than you? ⭐️ What ultra processed foods can we not live without? ⭐️ What should you do when your friend starts weight loss drugs for “wardrobe” reasons? ⭐️ Did Virginia buy the air fryer and if so, what is she air frying? To hear our answers, you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber . Subscriptions are $7 per month or $70 for the year. Westend61 for Getty Images Read more…
You’re listening to Burnt Toast! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay , and today we’re getting into our Ins and Outs for 2025. Most Indulgence Gospel episodes are paywalled, but we’re releasing today’s conversation for free as a January-has-been-a-lot-aleady treat! If you enjoy this conversation, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription . Subscribe now PS. You can always listen to this pod right here in your email, where you’ll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Stitcher , and/or Pocket Casts ! And if you enjoy today’s conversation, please tap the heart on this post — likes are one of the biggest drivers of traffic from Substack’s Notes, so that’s a super easy, free way to support the show! Ekaterina Demidova, Getty Images Episode 176 Transcript Virginia Okay, Corinne, since you introduced me to this concept, can you explain for the people what an in and out list is? Corinne This came onto my radar maybe two years ago. Everyone on Instagram was posting a screenshot of their Notes app, with a list on the left of things that are IN for the coming year. And on the right, a list of things that are OUT. I think it’s kind of a fun exercise to do. You could really do it at any time of the year, but, you know, it’s New Year’s. We’re reflecting. Virginia Why not? Corinne It’s kind of like a resolution, but it’s a different framing. Because it’s this is what’s in for me this year. And this is what I’m leaving behind. I also think a lot of the lists that I’ve liked and appreciated are a little cheeky. Like something that’s out will be something you’ve been seeing everywhere. Virginia And you’re over it. On the diet culture front: You could certainly be like, “carbs are out,” and it would be very obviously diet culture. But it feels like there’s a little more room to breathe and make In/Out Lists not diet culture. Because it’s not even necessarily you resolving to do the things on your list. It could just be something you’re enjoying or bringing in. I like the flexibility of that a lot. Corinne That was one thing I wanted to bring up, because we talked about it last year. I intentionally have not looked back at my list from last year. I hate looking back at my old lists , because when I look at them, I literally feel like, who was that person? If I look back at old pictures of myself, I feel sort of tender for that younger version of myself. But when I look back at the in and out list, I’m like, who was that idiot? Virginia I think because they are cheeky and responding to trends? It’s kind of capturing a moment in time. Like, whatever is on your out list isa time capsule of the year before, which is fun, but it’s not necessarily going to be your truest core self. These are whims, these are our hot takes or unpopular opinions on things in this moment. It’s fine. I don’t think we have to look back at it. I don’t think we have to hold ourselves to these things lasting all year long. It’s just where we are in this particular moment. Corinne Definitely. It’s also something that I enjoy as a social activity. I like to ask my friends, what’s in and what’s out for you? Virginia Did I end up making one last year? I can’t even remember. Corinne I think you did, but I think it was a little late. I didn’t look back for yours because I didn’t want to look back for mine. Virginia Right, right? We’ll just let that go into the ether. [ Post-recording note: Or you can find Virginia’s 2024 list here , if you’re curious!] Corinne Another thing I’ve seen people doing around New Years is the bingo card, instead of an in and out list. Virginia Oh yeah, someone dropped this in chat this week. What is a bingo card? I don’t understand. Corinne The concept is basically that you make a bingo board. So what is that? Five by five squares? And each square has a thing in. It can be activities you want to do, or it can be outlandish predictions like, “Drake will be the Super Bowl performer.” Or a combination of both. And then you try to get bingo, and reward yourself. And this year, I was sort of feeling like, ooh, that feels a little more fun. Because I have some things that I wanted to put on my in/out list that don’t really fit. Like, getting a tattoo, or visiting my sister—you know, stuff like that is a little more concrete and bingo card-ish. Virginia Okay, well you decided it was an in and out episode, though. So that’s what I’ve come prepared to discuss. Corinne I’ve still come prepared to discuss in and outs! I just wanted to present the bingo card as a concept. Virginia We’re noting that we are aware of it in the zeitgeist—at least Corinne is. And I am now aware of it, so I appreciate that. Corinne Yeah, and if ins/outs feels bad to you, then you could do bingo. Or you could do nothing. Virginia This may just be where my brain is on this particular day, but the whole making a grid of five squares is like sounding hard and sort of like math homework. And I’m like, no, no, don’t make me do it. But I might feel differently another day. Corinne I would lose it. Like, where would I keep it? Because I don’t know how to do that in my notes app. Virginia I mean, I had to text you and be like, “How do we make a table in the notes app?” So this is where I’m starting. Leave a comment Alright, Corinne, kick us off. Give us your first. Corinne Well, as you might expect, I have a lot of ins and outs that are somewhat clothes related. So, IN for me is wearing one thing over and over again . OUT is buying multiples of the exact same thing. That’s something I’m really trying to let go of this year. Virginia As I’m wearing a sweater right now, which I own in four colors, I really respect that. Because you don’t ever like the thing in the multiple colors the same way. It’s very rare. Corinne I feel like we’ve talked about how this often doesn’t work. So I’m going to try and be aware of that. And I will say, I’ve already been tempted. As I was writing about the stuff I wore on my road trip , I was like, dang, I should really just buy another pair of those Universal Standard cargo jeans because I like them so much. Big Undies What I Wore on a Road Trip This Christmas was a particularly exciting one for me because I have a new nephew! And it was my first time getting to meet him, plus my first trip to Oregon, where my sister lives. The drive from New Mexico is about 19 hours, which I did over the course of 3 days / 2 nights (one short day and two longer… Read more 22 days ago · 56 likes · 23 comments · Corinne Fay Virginia You do. Corinne But I’m trying not to. Virginia So you’re referring to not buying multiples of the same exact item. Like, not just “Oh, I’m going to get the sweater in three colors.” But like, you would be tempted to buy two of the same sweater in the same color, if you liked it. Corinne Yes. I have this striped shirt from Target that I like, and I have two green ones and one blue one. Granted, I think they cost $10, but do I really need two of the exact same green striped shirt? Because I also have other striped shirts, you know? And then I’m trying to use this app Indyx to keep track of my closet. And I’m like, how do I even put in two of the exact same green shirt? Virginia Yeah, that’s confusing. I mean, I love a uniform, so I admit I fall for the multiples concept. I have my Beyond Yoga joggers in three colors, and I just rotate through them all week long in the winter. But I have definitely been burnt by this rule as well. So I agree it could be out, or at least heavy reflection before committing to something in multiples. Corinne Yeah, I think it’s also way easier to buy the multiples of a thing that’s really cheap. I’m doing this at Target and Old Navy, you know? And then that doesn’t feel good. Virginia Yeah, The Beyond Yoga joggers are an investment. I bought one pair and was wearing them constantly and then built up the collection when they go on sale. It’s a little different. Share Corinne What’s on your list? Virginia Okay, I’ll do a clothing one, too. IN for me is bootcut pants. And I feel like this is going to be controversial, but OUT for me is the wide-cropped Colette pants that everybody loves and that I loved like three months ago, but I don’t love anymore. Now, I am open to that changing in the summer. I really feel like for me, a wide legged crop pant is a warm weather style. I need to treat them like shorts. I cannot crack the boot styling with them. The boot and sock styling, I cannot crack it. I just feel like a crazy art teacher, and not in an aesthetic choice way. Just in a what happened way, when I get dressed in it. But I have been wearing some boot cut pants , also from Beyond Yoga. And I’m like, why did we banish this trend for so long? They’re kind of cute and comfy. I don’t know, I like them. Corinne That’s exciting. And so bootcut—they’re touching your shoes? Virginia They are, yes. They touch my shoes. They are fitted through the thigh, and then there’s a slight flare, but not all the way to full flare. And they look cute with running shoes. And they also look good with a boot—like a chunky boot or probably any boot. I mean, these are leggings materials, so I don’t wear them with a dressy boot. That feels odd to me. But a casual boot. But I am now like, do I want some nice black pants that are a bootcut? Corinne Or jeans? Virginia I haven’t tried bootcut jeans—I mean, in this millennia, obviously. I wore them plenty in the 90s, but I am like, oh, a high waisted bootcut jean is interesting to me . So TBD on that. But that’s where I am on pants right now, which is a new place. Subscribe now Corinne That’s cool. Are you going to get rid of the Colette ones? Or seeing what happens? Virginia I’m going to hold on to them for the warmer weather. I have them in denim. And I thought they were going to go through the fall/winter, and they are not. But I’m going to put them over in my shorts pile and treat them like a summer clothing item. I think that’s what they are for me. At least bare ankles weather, which, we’re recording this in 12 degrees in New York right now. So it is not bare ankles weather. So that may be heavily influencing my pants feelings at the moment. What’s next for you? Corinne Okay, my next one is kind of a response to some events, so I’ll just say that. Okay, IN: Bird watching. OUT: TikTok. IN (Arthur Morris, Getty Images) Virginia Amazing. Corinne Just for the record, Tiktok will not be out if it doesn’t get banned. Virginia But you are making your peace with that possibility. Corinne If it does get banned, I’m replacing it with bird watching. Virginia Well, my next one is very related. We’re really in sync here. IN for me is Bird Buddy , which is my new video bird feeder. And OUT for me is Instagram. So I now am like, oh, do I need to get you a Bird Buddy? Because let me explain to you what is so great about this. It’s a little bird feeder with a video camera in it, and it connects to an app on your phone. So not only do they send you photos when birds land on the feeder, so you get an exciting notification every now and then, it also has a livestream! So instead of scrolling Instagram, I can livestream my bird feeders and it is the most soothing thing ever, Corinne. I’m just like, oh, nothing’s happening. Oh, here’s a chickadee. Okay, nothing’s happening now. Oh, here’s a nuthatch. Corinne IN: bird media. OUT: social media. DEFINITELY IN. (Ignore amateur Photoshopping out of Virginia’s house in background and enjoy the MARVEL that is this red-bellied woodpecker!!! ) Virginia As people who read the newsletter know, I took a three week Instagram break over Christmas, and I was like, oh, I think my brain is so much happier. So now I’m trying a thing where, since I have to go on Instagram for work to post about the newsletter or whatever, I download the app, post, answer a few DMS, delete the app. And this is what I’m trying this week. We’ll see. I am really interested in less Instagram time for me. Tiktok is not my challenge. I never got hooked into it. But I think birds are the thing to replace this stuff with. I think we’re really onto something! And I’m just saying, a bird app really helps. Corinne Yeah, that does sound cool. The Merlin bird app has been a Butter for me before, and I got a pair of binoculars for Christmas. Virginia Ooh, delightful. Corinne Going to try to be using the binoculars. Virginia Yeah, yeah. Are you going out bird watching in places or backyard bird watching? Corinne You know, I haven’t gone yet . But that’s on my goals. That would be on my bingo card. Virginia To go on a bird watch. Corinne To go bird watching. I also weirdly have a lot of friends here who are really into bird watching, so I’m hoping one of them will take me under their wing. Virginia I noticed the bird humor there. We’re going to go past that, but that did happen. But if they don’t take you under their wing, come to New York and my mother will take you bird watching. Bird watching is, I would say, conservatively, 70 percent of my mother’s personality. It is her deep passion, her retirement hobby, calling, what have you. She does it all the time. So she’s also on the live stream. Oh! I can add you to my Bird Buddy! Corinne Oh yeah! Because I think my dog will chase the birds away if I get a feeder for my yard. Leave a comment Virginia Okay, I will add you when we are done recording so you can check out the live stream whenever you want and get the notifications. Also, to be clear, it’s actually not my Bird Buddy. I gave it to my 11 year old for Christmas, and she does also really love it. And there’s a thing where you can name the frequent visitor birds. She’s naming them. So I got it for her, because she’s always loved birds, and now I’m totally hooked. Well. That was like 90 minutes on birds, but that feels right. Share Give us another one. Corinne Okay, my next one is: IN for me, decluttering. OUT for me, organizing. Virginia Okay, say more, because how are they not the same thing? Corinne Well, I feel like I had this revelation last year ( thanks to this post ) where I was, like, before I can do any organizing, I actually just need to get rid of some stuff. Like, it’s like, it’s just never going to stay organized if— Virginia If there’s too much? Corinne I need to just have less stuff. I’m not ever going to be a minimalist. But before I’m organizing, I need to be letting some stuff go. Virginia So organizing is out for you, but maybe not out forever? Corinne It’s not that being organized is out. It’s organizing is not a solution to having too much stuff, I guess. Virginia Yeah, it’s like, maybe you’ll revisit that concept if you do pare down the stuff to the point where some system of organization can contain it. But currently that is not an option. Corinne Right. And it’s like that thing where you buy the containers for your pantry, rather than first you need to get rid of all the stuff that’s expired. Virginia Totally, totally, yes. Corinne That’s a conceptual one, you know? Virginia It is high concept, but I’m here for it. Subscribe now This is maybe also going to be a little controversial. IN for me is baking cookies in my air fryer. OUT for me—but trust me, controversial, at least locally in my house—are Tate’s cookies. Corinne Oh, wow. I’m obsessed with Tate’s cookies. Virginia So is my seven year old. We go through conservatively two bags a week, and I think I get to eat one of them. One cookie, to be clear. Corinne They have the crunch level of potato chips. It’s so easy to eat a whole bag. Virginia They’re delicious. They are absolutely delicious. I’m not saying they’re not delicious. I am saying they are like $7 a bag. Meanwhile, I’ve been buying the tub of the Nestle Toll House cookie dough from the grocery store—you can get a giant tub for like $7 so it’s going to make way more cookies. And my air fryer has a cookie setting! So you can bake 12 cookies in the air fryer so much faster than you can bake them in the oven. And if you make sure the dough is warm enough before you put them in, they get spread out and thin, very similar to the Tate’s cookies. IN. You all know me. I love an ultra processed food. I’m not here to say from scratch is better. I can also bake cookies fully from scratch. I’m not doing that here. I’m using the store bought dough. But the delightfulness of being able to have warm cookies, because also this way the cookies are warm! Which is the best. The Tate’s ones are not warm. And when it’s a movie night or something, just like, I’m going to bake 12 cookies really fast so we can eat them while we watch the movie. Corinne That’s awesome. It sounds great. I mean, if I had to choose between Tate’s and fresh baked cookies, I would choose fresh baked. Virginia I think we all would. But I would previously not have gone to the effort until I discovered the store bought dough and how much faster they are to bake in my air fryer. But I will tell you, it’s not popular. The other day, we had both options available, and the seven year old went for the Tate’s. She was like, “I don’t like those homemade cookies.” And I was like, “They aren’t even fully homemade!” So I don’t know that I’m going to be able to actually decrease my Tate’s budget. I may have to do some subtle transitioning over? But for me personally, I think they’re tastier, so. Corinne That’s a good one. Leave a comment Okay, I’m going to do a food one too, then. It’s also maybe a little silly. IN for me is beef stews or stewed beef type of things. OUT is pulled pork. IN (rudisill, Getty Images) Virginia Whoa. Corinne I’ve got to be honest, I have not been eating a lot of pulled pork. But we made a pot roast when I was at my sister’s house, which is something I’ve never made before, and is not something that my mom served growing up. It was delicious. And now I’m aspiring to eat more pot roast. And I’ve a couple times made the Alison Roman chili recipe , which has beef chuck in it instead of ground beef. Virginia Oh, that is a good way to make chili. Corinne And I think I’m going to try a brisket soon. So I’m into huge chunks of beef as opposed to huge chunks of pork. Virginia Okay, but I don’t know why we’re being anti the huge chunk of pork. Share Corinne It’s arbitrary. Maybe I could think of a better out for that if I worked on it. But I feel like pulled pork has been in for a long time. Virginia It’s true. I actually also have a meat-related one. Why are we so in sync? Our brains are on a mind meld. So mine, I will disclaim before I even say it—lots of privilege involved here! Privilege to be able to make a more expensive grocery choice not available to everyone. I think it’s clear with all of these, we’re not endorsing these as lifestyle plans for the rest of you. Corinne These are highly personal. Virginia So mine is IN small butcher meat and eggs, OUT grocery store meat and eggs. The backstory: I have two children who are vegetarian or vegetarian-leaning. I am not interested in being a vegetarian, I’m sorry. But in a attempt to be be more aware of the many issues around meat consumption, I have decided that this year, I’m going to commit to only buying meat from our local butcher who specializes in animals raised on small farms. These were the happiest of cows, given every opportunity, a good college education, etc. So I’m only going to buy our meat and our eggs from them, and I’m not going to buy the grocery store stuff. It is more expensive, but it’s a great local business in our community. They add a lot of value. I would love to help make sure they stay here. So that is a shift I’m making. I value farmers and what they do, and I want to be being more mindful of that, since it is something I can do, Corinne That’s cool. That’s a good one! Subscribe now Um, okay, I have one other food one that’s a little silly. IN as a pastry / dessert flavor in for me, passion fruit. OUT as a pastry, dessert flavor, matcha. Virginia Was matcha ever in? Corinne I feel like yes. Virginia Did anyone really like it? Or is it like how everyone says they read the books on the Booker list awards, but they don’t really read them? Corinne Oh, I don’t know. I like matcha as a drink. I don’t want a matcha eclair. But I would like a passionfruit eclair. Virginia I just want chocolate. Corinne All of this is irrelevant to you, nevermind. Virginia It’s very opaque to me, but I’m glad for you. The next one is another little bit more high concept. It’s about colors I’m feeling right now for myself and for for my house and for my wardrobe. IN is dark teal, dark green, like evergreen forest green, and pink. OUT for me, is light gray. I should say, pink is always in for me, but different shades of pink. I’m leaning a little more hot pink these days, a little over the millennial blush pink. But all the pinks. Corinne Oooh, that’s a good one, yes. Leave a comment Virginia And I was explaining to you the other day, I have realized light gray clothing makes me look dead. It makes me look like a corpse. And yet I own so much of it. It’s a color that is heavily marketed to Millennial Moms. Because it’s very minimalist. You should have the fisherman sweater in this color. And I don’t know, I just feel like I’m always being told to wear light gray and I’m done. I’m not doing it anymore. So it feels good. Corinne I love that. I feel like those colors look good together, too. Virginia Yeah, it’s also kind of my book cover again , and I don’t really know how I feel about that, but I’m expecting it to evolve. I’m saying these are colors I’m feeling right now, but I am in the process of trying to choose a new living room sofa, and I feel like I’ve always gone for blues. Well, in my heart, I want a cream sofa, but I know my life. But in the past, I would have always gone towards more blue, gray colors. And I’m now feeling like a forest green or a deep teal or something. Corinne I’m really into forest green as well. Virginia But does that mean we’ll be sick of it soon and I shouldn’t put it in a sofa where I’m not going to want to replace it for a long time? Corinne I think it’s a classic. Virginia I think it’s like navy, where you can build around it. You can change the pop of colors around it. Okay, I’m glad we had that talk. Corinne Okay. This one is a little more clothes-related and this is something I really need to work on. IN for me, accessories. OUT for me, matching sets. Virginia Oh! Corinne I thought you might feel targeted by that. Virginia I feel a little called out, I only just got into matching sets like six months ago, and now you’re taking them from—well, not from me, from you. Corinne I had a realization. I bought a few matching sets last summer and then ended up only wearing the shorts . And I was just like, hmm, do I really like matching sets, or do I just like the concept? Virginia I love the concept, but I understand. Share Corinne And I’m feeling I really want to beef up on my accessories collection. Virginia I support this. Are you a “I want a set of accessories I wear all the time” person or do you want to mix and match different outfits have different accessories? Corinne I want to mix and match. I wear very basic stuff so I feel like some accessories could make it feel more fun and fancy. I feel like I’m seeing a lot of brooches? Pins could be interesting. Plus the whole bonnet/hood/balaclava thing. Virginia You’ve been wanting a bonnet forever. If this is not the year you get it, I don’t even know. Corinne I mean, I just feel like the bonnet season in Albuquerque is so short that I can’t really justify having a lot of them. Virginia Where is the bonnet season ever long? What climate does one wear a bonnet for? Corinne Well, I feel like, in New York, you could probably wear them through March. I feel like here it’s probably just December and January. Virginia Are you talking about like a wool bonnet for warmth? Corinne Yeah, that’s what I was thinking, like a knit one. Virginia Because you’ve also been interested in fabric bonnets, like cotton. Corinne Yeah, that’s true. Okay, well, yeah, that might be a little bit of a longer season. Virginia You could wear that whenever you’re feeling like a little Puritan cosplay. Okay, well, I still endorse you getting a bonnet anyway, because I think your heart has wanted one for a long time. And I agree it will be a jaunty accessory. Corinne Yes, thank you. Also, jewelry. You know, jewelry has been in for a while now. Shoes. Virginia Okay, my last one is also going back to clothing. And it’s really more about my out than my in, because my in has been in for me for a while, but my IN is two piece bathing suits. They are easier when you are dealing with children and you’re gonna have to go to the bathroom. I know you can do the pull to the side move in a one piece, but I don’t like it. It is easier to wear a two piece and only body hangups keep us from that ease. IN (FG Trade, Getty Images) So I’m pro two piece bathing suits for myself, specifically, and also the world, if that is interesting to you. And what is OUT for me is the one piece with what my friend Mary calls apology ruching. My friend Mary went to Great Wolf Lodge, which is a local indoor water park situation. I’ve never been, but I hear tales. And she was like, “Virginia, we’re at this water park over winter break with the kids. It’s like all families and their kids. And every mom in her 40s or late 30s was wearing the one piece with ruching.” Which is like, what is it meant to hide? Because it hides nothing! It does nothing. It’s your body, but now it has some bumpy fabric on top. It’s a way of signaling that you’ve tried to cover yourself. “I tried to prevent you understanding that I have a belly.” Subscribe now Corinne I mean, ruching is for sure out. But also, the thing I’ll say about that is, it’s very hard to find a one piece bathing suit without ruching! My top bathing suit is a one piece from Land’s End, and I would so strongly prefer that it did not have ruching, but that’s not an option. Virginia No, I understand. It’s one of those obnoxious things, especially about plus size swimwear. Ruching is the plus size swimwear equivalent of the cold shoulder top. It’s like, no one asked for this, but they put it on everything. But that’s why I’m going over to two pieces. And my hack for two pieces, especially for if you are busty like I am, and you need a family friendly swimsuit, is sports bra. Cute, colored sports bra, fun pattern on the bottom, high waisted bottoms, is my formula. And I just feel like it gives you more versatility, frankly, as a family friendly swimsuit. People can handle seeing three inches of your midsection and you’re not doing this apology ruching game. Corinne A lot of high waisted two piece bottoms also have ruching. Virginia They do. And I will not be purchasing them. Corinne Hopefully we have some swimsuit designers listening. Virginia Yeah, get on this, people. No one wants it. No one asked for it. Especially with moms who are concerned about, quote, mom, body things. It’s like, this way of being like, “Maybe I used to be confident displaying my body at a communal swimming place, but I no longer am, so I have ruched my midsection.” No more! Well, this was very fun. I loved all of these. I’m very excited about our ins and outs, and I want to hear what other people are doing. Corinne Yeah, me too. I really want to see what some other people have on their lists. Virginia And you don’t have to do the notes format if you don’t want, obviously. We’ll have ours in the transcript. You can just put them in the comments. Leave a comment Corinne’s In/Out list Virginia’s In/Out List Leave a comment Butter selfiefay A post shared by @selfiefay Corinne Okay, my butter is the shirt that I’m wearing right now. It is called the Fay Chore Coat . Virginia It’s named after you! Corinne It is named after me. It comes from a brand called Connally goods, which is a small clothing company in Canada. They’re really cool. They have good sizing options, and I think they’re one of those brands that if you’re not on the size chart, they will work with you to make something anyways. Virginia Amazing. Corinne But anyways, because I have talked a lot about loving denim shirts and denim chore coats, they made this coat. It has snaps in the front. Virginia It’s adorable. Corinne It’s really cute. And I’ve been wearing it as a shirt. I think you could also wear it as a coat. The denim is not too thick. It’s pretty thin, but it’s really cute. And everyone should check it out. Virginia Also, can we just have a moment for like, you’re such a celebrity that someone named a coat after you? That’s pretty amazing. That’s a level of fame, few of us reach that peak is what I’m saying. Corinne I mean, I think it’s very niche. But, yes, I’m very famous within a very tiny niche. Virginia They’re fans. We love that. If you’re not reading Big Undies, this is your reminder yet again to please fix that. I t’s so good people are naming clothing after Corinne! So that’s why you should be reading it. Also, if you’re a paid Burnt Toast subscriber, you get 20% off. The chore coat is adorable, and I feel like very versatile. Like you could wear it like open over striped shirt. You could do a lot with that. And it is quintessential you, they really nailed your style. It’s awesome. I’m excited to shop there. That’s very cool. Corinne What’s your Butter? Virginia Okay, my Butter is what Corinne got me for Christmas, which is these amazing brownies from Vesta Chocolate . Corinne sent me—I don’t even know how many you sent, there were many. It was a very full box of these amazing brownies. And they are like the richest, most super chocolatey brownies. And we all know I am someone with some authority on this subject. I am something of a brownie expert, and they are the most rich, super chocolatey brownies I’ve ever had. Corinne And I just want to say that I heard about these from Helen Rosner! Virginia Oh, well there you go. There you go! These are New Yorker food critic endorsed brownies. [Come see Virginia and Helen discuss these brownies and other things IRL next Thursday, January 23! Tickets here. ] They’re so rich. Like, again, I am something of a brownie overachiever. I actually couldn’t eat a whole one, so I ended up cutting them into quarters. So you maybe sent a dozen brownies, and we ended up with like four dozen. Corinne Oh my God, that’s amazing. Virginia They were like the Jesus of brownies, they just kept making more loaves and fishes or whatever. It was great. When I was hosting a lot over the holidays, I could just have them out on the counter, just having a super decadent, delicious treat like that around all the time. Also a plug for food gifting in general, you really cannot go wrong. My food gift this year was I gave quite a few of this coffee cake that was recommended by from a bakery called Zingerman’s. And I did gift one to myself as well, and was really glad I did that. Corinne I’ve given people stuff from Zingerman’s before. It’s really good. Virginia Yeah, their stuff is great, and it lasts a long time, too. So that’s awesome. So, general Butter of food gifting. But specifically, these brownies were off the charts, and I’m excited to see what else they ship. All right, well, so much good stuff is in for 2025. It’s been like a little rocky start to January over here in the Sole-Smith household. We’ve got some flu, we’ve got some things going on, and this is picking up my mood quite a bit. So thank you! Share The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram ) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus , and Big Undies — subscribe for 20% off ! The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe . Our theme music is by Farideh . Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism! Subscribe now…
Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark. Today, we’re tackling two big topics: 1. Can you do a diet-y thing and still be an anti-diet advocate? 2. And can Corinne and Virginia divest from Amazon for one month? (Or is that…also kind of diet-y???) To listen to the full episode and read the full transcript, you’ll need to join Extra Butter , our premium subscription tier. Subscribe now Extra Butter is ON SALE this week for just $79 per year. (Regular paid subscribers, the remaining value of your subscription will be deducted from that total!) In these monthly episodes, we get into the GOOD stuff like: The curious evolution of Emily Oster Dating While Fat Why all the fat influencers are getting skinn y And… did Virginia really get divorced over butter ? Extra Butters also get exclusive weekly chats, DM access, and a monthly bonus essay or thread. And Extra Butter ensures that the Burnt Toast community can always stay an ad- and sponsor-free space —which is crucial for body liberation journalism. Join us here! (Questions? Glitches? Email Virginia all the details, and cc support@substack.com.) PS. If Extra Butter isn’t the right tier for you, remember that you still get access behind almost every other paywall with a regular paid subscription . RichLegg, Getty Images Episode 175 Transcript Virginia This feels like a very timely conversation for January. We are getting inundated with all of the diet talk, all of the urge for self improvement. This is the month where even if you’re staunchly anti-diet…you might start drifting that way. So we thought, let’s get into it. Let’s talk really honestly about what that means and what it looks like. Read more…
You’re listening to Burnt Toast! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay , and we’re dropping in today with your Burnt Toast Podcast Year In Review. Don’t forget! Burnt Toast subscriptions are 20% off right now — but that deal ends tomorrow night. Don’t miss it! Get 20% off forever And if you haven’t donated to our NAAFA fundraiser yet, we could really use your help funding fat. FG Trade for Getty You can always listen to our episodes right here in your email, where you’ll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Stitcher , and/or Pocket Casts ! Episode 174 Transcript Virginia It has been a really great year for the podcast, wouldn’t you agree, Corinne? Corinne I would agree. Virginia Yes. I don’t know that we celebrated this properly at the time, but a few months ago, we actually passed 1 million downloads this year , which is wild to me. Corinne Honestly, I can’t think about that too hard. Virginia Then I will not tell you that we are now at 1.32 million, as of this recording. Corinne My gosh! It’s wild. Virginia I know it’s really cool. I feel super proud of the podcast. I love making it with you. Corinne So we are going to take this opportunity to chat about listeners’ five favorite episodes of the year—plus the least popular episode! Virginia The poor, unloved episode. Before we dive in, I feel like I need to own up that this is a very imperfect science I used to rank the episodes. Since we do a mix of paywalled and unpaywalled episodes, I can’t just go by total download numbers. That’s because the paywalled episodes—Corinne, this will be reassuring to you, as someone who’s primarily on paywalled episodes—have lower number of downloads on these. So the million downloads is not all you. Corinne Yeah. And it’s a million downloads across all episodes, right? Virginia Yes. This is episode 174 so I think that number, the 1.3 million, is like, current to 170 or something like that. Amazing Corinne & Virginia painting by OG Burnt Toastie Katie Rose! But I did look at which episodes were downloaded the most for the year, and then I also looked at which episodes the paywall was most effective—meaning that you all paid to listen. Because that tells us a lot about is this episode striking a nerve so much that you’re like, “yes, I will pay $7 or for Extra Butter folks, $99 to listen to this episode.” So I think that’s pretty indicative of its popularity. Get 20% off forever Corinne It’s always fun to see what people are excited about. And where we sometimes fail with writing headlines. Virginia We work so hard on the headlines, and sometimes I think we’ve really nailed it and then we have not at all. I will also say I’m exempting from the data last week’s episode, as of this recording. The Tyranny of the Millennial Camisole episode came out last week. It’s not doing great, but it’s only had a few days and I don’t feel it’s fair to judge it yet! But you all should go listen to it, because it’s such a good episode. I feel that people are missing out by not hearing us discuss camisoles and horizontal stripes and whatever else we talked about in that episode. Corinne It’s about a lot more than just camisoles! Although camisoles were a big part. Virginia They were and I think maybe in my headline writing, I over-emphasized that. I apologize, but if you’ve ever worn Spanx, that episode is for you. 2024’s Least Popular Podcast Episode! Corinne Okay, here we go. We are starting with the least popular episode. This is the one that has the fewest downloads and had the fewest people paying to listen. Do you remember this episode? Virginia I mean, I’ll admit I had to open it up and be like, which episode was this? Corinne Oh, interesting. It’s from July of this year. Virginia Do we think everyone was just on summer vacation? Corinne It’s definitely possible. Virginia July is, historically, usually a pretty low month overall for newsletters and podcasts in general, I think because of summer travel schedules. Corinne But I will say—the question that the headline is referring to, the fatphobic roller coaster question, was memorable for me. Virginia Yeah, no, absolutely. It was from a woman who was going to amusement parks and feeling really sad she couldn’t ride on roller coasters. Corinne It was a good question. Virginia I think our answer was also pretty good. Folks can click through and listen to that. I think maybe the headline is a little niche? If you haven’t currently struggled with roller coasters or socks, that might be why it didn’t speak to you. But I also want to say: If dismantling anti-fatness is important to you, these kind of mundane issues are the work. It’s not always the sexy stuff. Sometimes it is totally roller coasters and socks. Also Corinne on socks is just a great rant, guys. Corinne Oh, my God. Virginia That’s also worth listening to! Corinne Well, yeah, I also think if you like the episodes where there are deeper questions and we’re thinking about the nuance of fatphobia and what do we give up when we decide to stop dieting. I think this is good one, and you might want to listen if you missed it. Virginia Yeah, agreed, agreed. And we’re not judging you, but a little bit we are, that you blew past some of our finest work. Okay, let’s now go through what you guys did like, and we’ll go from least to most, right? Top 5 Most Popular Episodes of 2024 Corinne We’re going from least most popular to most most popular. So the Number 5 Most Popular Episode is: Did Virginia get divorced over butter? Corinne How do you feel about your divorce being one of the most popular episodes? Virginia I feel zero surprise about it, and I am not going to answer that question here. People can listen to the episode and find out, what I think about it. Corinne It’s another good episode. What else did we talk about in that episode? Virginia We talked also a lot about how the newsletter works. Corinne The making of the sausage, how the sausage is made. Virginia We did talk about the weirdness of the Internet having a parasocial relationship with one’s personal life, so if that’s an interesting topic, it’s pretty juicy. And people have told us they really like the process stories. People are interested in how we make the podcast and the newsletter. I think I’m always interested in that for other people. Leave a comment 4. Can I want to lose weight for a good reason? Corinne This is another, like, mail baggy episode. And I do think that question is kind of perennially interesting. Virginia It’s definitely another nuanced and chewy question, which we really love to do. But there are some other lighter questions in that episode: Is it okay to feed your children paleo waffles? My thoughts on single mom travel. Are there any comfortable jeans? Share Corinne The third most popular episode—which I’m actually a tiny bit surprised about. I thought, honestly, it would be higher—was: 3. When Fat Influencers Get Thinner. Virginia Oh yeah, this was a juicy one. Corinne This is one where we talked about fat influencers losing weight because of Ozempic. Virginia I wonder if it would have been even higher if we had name-checked somebody in the headline. Corinne Maybe? Virginia That’s something—as we’ll see when we get to number one—that is sometimes effective. But it’s tricky. I think one thing we’ve realized about the podcast is that y’all really like us doing criticism and analysis of Internet culture as it intersects with diet culture and anti-fatness. So there are quite a few influencer episodes that have done well. But because Internet culture is as vast as it is, often these people are kind of niche. If you’re not already following plus size influencers, or you’re not already following kid food influencers or whatever, you might not know the specific players. So I think that’s why we didn’t include the names. Because we were like, will everyone know these people? Corinne And also this episode wasn’t just about one person, it was about a wider cultural phenomenon. Virginia Yes. It was the trend of influencers using Ozempic or Wegovy to lose weight, and suddenly, kind of radically changing the way they talk about weight and body acceptance and health journeys. Corinne This is one of the episodes I was most stressed about recording, just because it feels so hard to get right. I remember when it came out, I was just like, oh, I kind of hope no one listens. Get 20% off forever Virginia Unfortunately, many people listened. Thousands of people listened, Corinne. But what I always want to push back on is that the scolding we always get is “you’re tearing down other women,” or “you’re being mean girls.” And I think that is actually a very anti-feminist understanding of this work. We have to hold other women accountable when they are not being allies to other women and otherwise marginalized folks. And specifically, this episode—and I think pretty much all our influencer episodes—focus on white ladies with a lot of privilege who are not using that privilege responsibly. That criticism is really important right now. And it’s not being a mean girl, it’s being a cultural critic and someone who analyzes diet culture and is able to identify it. And sometimes women create diet culture. So we have to say that. But I get why you were nervous about it. People are going to be meaner to me than to you, though, if it helps. You’re the more likable one! Corinne Oh, my God. I don’t actually remember there being a lot of pushback after that episode came out. But maybe you got all of it. Virginia I don’t either but I also don’t go on Reddit very often. Corinne Oh, yeah, no, me neither. At least not for that. Virginia That’s a self-care measure for us. We will not be doing that, and you don’t need to send us anything you find there! Okay, the next two are kind of like one and two. You can make arguments for which is one and which is two. But what I’m calling number 2 was our far and away most downloaded episode of the year: 2. Is “Mom Rage” Actually “Marriage Rage?” This was my interview with Lyz Lenz about her new book, This American Ex-Wife . It has almost 28,000 downloads, which is easily 10,000 downloads more than a free episode usually gets. So it was off to the races. Corinne Wow. It was a great episode. Virginia It was a great episode! I mean, it definitely also touched a nerve. I think the comment section got kind of spicy. Anytime we do divorce and marriage topics, we hear from people who really like their marriages and feel personally attacked. Corinne Totally makes sense. Virginia And I’m not saying they need to get divorced, but they sometimes seem to think that’s what we’re saying? But is great, and it is a really fantastic conversation. And it’s interesting too, because, you know, I first had Lyz on the podcast to talk about diet culture and divorce well before my own divorce. And then she came back, and we were two divorced ladies together. It was kind of a fun little evolution. Corinne I love that. And the number one most popular episode of the year is… Leave a comment 1. The Curious Evolution of Emily Oster Virginia Drumroll for that. This one really blew up. The free preview for this has also over 25,000 downloads. The full paywalled episode is less, but it did convert a ton of people who wanted to hear the whole thing. And that is again, above average numbers for us. Corinne Yeah, that’s also really interesting, because that one is from just last month. Whereas the last two were from February. Virginia Yes. I mean, usually the older an episode is, the more downloads it has, because new people discovering the podcast often go back and download old episodes. But Emily Oster was an immediate hit. And despite everything I said about feeling very strongly that we are not being mean girls, and we are culture critics, and this is valid work— this was the one I was the most nervous about. Corinne Well, and you know her. Virginia I have a lot of respect for Emily. But there have been some weird right turns taken, and I felt it was important to talk about it. So that is all in that episode. Corinne I’m kind of surprised that the Kids Eat In Color episode isn’t on here. Virginia If we were only going to do top 5 paywalled episodes, it would have been number five. Corinne Oh, gotcha. Virginia That is another good one. But since I wanted to make sure to include at least one of the free ones as well, I did some very scientific number crunching… in the 10 minutes before we recorded this episode. Share Corinne Are there any episodes you’re surprised aren’t in the top five? Virginia I don’t think so. I mean, I’ve been tracking all the way along that this influencer analysis thing was really taking off. And two divorce things on this list doesn’t surprise me at all, because that’s been a huge driver of engagement. I’m definitely sad for fatphobic roller coasters being the least popular episode. That’s where I think the heart of this work is. And then the more gossipy topics like public figures and divorce—that’s what gets the clicks and the downloads. So the cynical journalist in me is like, well, of course, But we’re not going to stop doing the fat phobic roller coaster episodes. Corinne Yeah, I think they’re super important. Virginia We really need them. So I encourage everyone: If you love an Emily Oster type episode, please go listen to that on e too. Because it’s all part of the work. Corinne It’s really fun to answer listener questions too. Virginia Yes. I guess the less cynical part of me understands, though—because I think the mailbag question episodes are really fun but they are more random. So if you’re a newer listener, they feel a little inside baseball. It’s you and me hanging out and chatting, and it feels like we’re having a conversation with all the Burnt Toasties, which I love. But I can get why they’re harder to break into. So that’s something we might think about? How to make them more accessible? Corinne I think it’s also harder to write a hooky headline for those episodes. If it’s five different topics, then what do you put up top that will get people to listen? Virginia That is always a little bit of an experiment. How to frame it exactly? Maybe we have to make sure to include an influencer question in those, just to get it in the headline. I’m sorry it’s clickbait, but it’s what you all respond to! Leave a comment Butter Corinne Let’s do the the last butter of 2024! No pressure. Virginia That does feel like pressure, right? What do you have? Corinne Okay, well, I feel mine is like just a little anti-climactic, because I think I feel like everyone’s already gonna know about this. But I just read the book James by Percival Everett. It really is as good as everyone is saying. I really enjoyed it. I plowed right through it. I mean, as you probably know, it’s a retelling of Huck Finn. So it just has that adventure story and a plot that just kind of carries you right along. But it’s just a good read. So I definitely recommend that if people haven’t read it. I listened to the audiobook, which I thought was really good. Virginia Oh, nice. I’m excited to know that. I tried to make my book club read it, and they shot it down. We did read Colored Television by Danzy Senna who happens to be his wife. It also came out this year. And I did have a moment of like, I’m glad we read that one, because James is the one that really blew up. And Colored Television is also excellent. And it’s probably complicated to be two bestselling authors in a marriage, both releasing big books in the same year! I don’t know. It seems that seems like something! I would love to know more about how that works. But I do want to read James too. Corinne I don’t know why your book group shot it down, but my mom was telling me about it, and I was also resisting it, and then it just like, popped up on Libby, and I was like, Oh, fine. And then I I did really like it. Virginia Well, I have a knee-jerk reaction to not wanting to read books by and about men, which is something I can look at. I suppose. And I think the whole Huckleberry Finn retelling makes it feel like a school book versus a fun read. Corinne Yeah, I could see that. I mean, it is like, about slavery… Virginia It’s not an uplifting topic, but it does sound like a really incredible book. Corinne All right, what’s your Butter? Virginia I’m also going to do a culture rec, because something else we learned this year is that the culture-based Butters are the ones we stand by, versus when I tell you about something I bought at Target. So I’m not recommending anything from Target. I’m just going to do a Butter for Somebody Somewhere. It is the most delightful, beautiful little show. And I’m sad it’s ending after three seasons, but they are three perfect little jewel box seasons, and if you somehow have not experienced the magic that is Bridget Everett, I don’t know this is what you should do with the rest of your winter break. You should go binge watch it. Corinne Absolutely. I haven’t watched Season Three yet. I’m also like…I’m not, like, a musical person, so sometimes I’m like, can we move along there? Virginia But did you see the reel of her singing Janis Joplin on Jimmy Fallon? [Post-recording note: Virginia knows she talked about this show and shared this reel just last week and SHE DOES NOT CARE.] fallontonight A post shared by @fallontonight Corinne Yes, she’s incredible. Like, no hate. At all. Virginia They called it a karaoke performance. It was insulting. That was like a stadium arena level performance. I’m in love with her. Corinne She’s really cool, and the show is incredible. I just sometimes am fast-forwarding through the songs. Virginia I understand. It is always that thing where, like, you have this really talented actor who’s also an incredible singer. So you write in a plot line where they get to sing a lot, even though it’s maybe not totally in line with the episodes. But I’m like, so here for it, because I just find her so incredible. And the friend group is so great too! Corinne All the characters are really good. Virginia We are gonna miss that one, Bridget. I can’t wait to see what you do next. Iconic fat rep. Oh, and I won’t do spoilers since you haven’t seen Season Three yet, but there was an episode early in season three that texted me and was like, “I’m really nervous they’re gonna go in a weight loss plot line direction,” and then they don’t. And I actually think it’s one of the best episodes I’ve seen about being a fat person at a doctor’s office. Corinne Ooh. Virginia It’s very understated, because the whole show is very understated. It’s pretty nuanced, but they really show the whole experience of feeling vulnerable, when the gown doesn’t fit, and the way the doctor talks to her and all of that. And it’s so honest and well done. And her weight has never been part of the story, nor should it be. But the fact that they still wove it in as a part of life. It just is exquisitely done. Corinne Wow, that’s amazing. Well, that makes me really excited to watch. Virginia All right. Well, I just want to say a big thank you to all of our listeners. This has been a really, really great year making the podcast, and I’m excited to see what we do in 2025 How will we top these top five? Corinne Oh God, hard to say! I’m like, this means next year is 2 million downloads? Virginia Well, who knows. It could totally drop off, or it could blow up, and be at 5 million? Dream big, Corinne! Corinne Okay. Virginia Thanks for doing this with me. Corinne Yeah, thanks for doing this with me, and thanks to all our listeners. Leave a comment The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram ) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus , and Big Undies — subscribe for 20% off ! The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe . Our theme music is by Farideh . Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism! Get 20% off forever…
You’re listening to Burnt Toast! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay , and it’s time for your December Indulgence Gospel. Today’s episode is both holiday and sex-themed, which seems right! We’re getting into: ⭐️ How diet culture and anti-fatness show up during the holiday season. Comments from relatives! Fitness equipment as gifts! Matching family PJs! Etc. ⭐️ Our NEW Ask Corinne segment, where Corinne answers your fat sex and dating questions, like: What do you do when certain positions just don’t work for your body? 👀 Deagreez for Getty To find out, and hear the whole episode, you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber . Subscriptions are $7 per month or $70 for the year. Subscribe now If you’re already a paid subscriber, you can add on a subscription to Big Undies , Corinne’s newsletter about clothes, for 20% off. Bundle with Big Undies! PS. You can always listen to our episodes right here in your email, where you’ll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Stitcher , and/or Pocket Casts ! Read more…
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