Factional Foibles

Podcast Archives - The Partial Historians

We jump into the year of 402 BCE and Rome and Veii are tooth and nail in siege mode. In addition to this, Rome is rapidly approaching the end of the 5th century BCE, a date that is meaningful for historians and scholars but less significant for the Romans who understood the years through the names of the magistrates more than being overly interested in the base ten system.

Episode 151 – Factional Foibles

Watch your back!

Rome’s siege of Veii continues so there’s good reason to see six military tribunes with consular power in the role this year. But it may be the case that Rome’s military preoccupation with Veii is about to become costly. Just ask the Rome’s new garrison at Anxur in Volscian territory…

Siege Developments

Now you’d be forgiven for thinking a siege is not the most exciting form of warfare. And if it was just Rome versus Veii, it may indeed have remained a boring affair. But sometime in this year, it seems that Veil’s northern neighbours have realised that Veii falling to Rome might be terrible for them. Enter the Capenantes and Falscians and cue siege chaos! How will the situation be resolved? Tune in to find out.

Map of Veii including cities to the north Capena (Capenantes) and Falerii (Falsicans).

Things to Listen Out For

• The joys of Cornettos
• Skipping through the daisies
• A hideous sandwich situation
• Consideration of the extent of the powers of the tribunes of the plebs
• A potted introduction to the 3rd century CE writer Dio Cassius
• Some details about the archaeological record between Veii and Rome during this period
• A new record with the Partial Pick!
• A very late background contribution from one of our star podcats 🙂

Our Players for 402 BCE

Military Tribunes with Consular Power

• Gaius Servilius P. f. Q. n. Ahala (Pat)
• Quintus Servilius Q. f. P. n. Fidenas (Pat)
• Lucius Verginius L. f. Opetr. N. Tricostus Esquilinus (Pat)
• Quintus Sulpicius Ser. f. Ser. n. Camerinus Cornutus (Pat)
• Aulus Manlius A. f. Cn. n. Vulso Capitolinus (Pat)
• Maelius Sergius L. f. L. n. Fidenas (Pat)

Our Sources

• Dr Rad reads Livy 5.8.1
• Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 14.38.1; Fragmentvm de Praenominibus; Fasti Capitolini; Dio Cassius Book 6.23ish
• Arizza, M., Rossi, D. 2022. ‘The territory between Veii and Rome in the Archaic period: Rural structures as territorial markers of cultural frontiers’ Frontière.s, Revue d’archèologie, histoire et histoire de l’art Volume 6: 49-62. https://journals.openedition.org/frontieres/1297
• Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press). Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis) Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press)
• Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID239349186.
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press).

Sound Credits

Our theme music was composed by the amazing Bettina Joy de Guzman

Map of Veii from The Cities and Cemeteries of Etruria by George Dennis 1848

Automated Transcript

Lightly edited for Latin terminology and to support our wonderful Australian accents!

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to The Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:23
Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad.

Dr G 0:33
And I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I’m Dr rad, no longer afraid to say my Ps

Dr G 1:03
And I am Dr G. Goodness knows what foreshadowing that entails.

Dr Rad 1:09
Well, I can definitely assure you there’ll be lots of patricians and plebeians running around in this episode. So it’s good not to have to worry about saying my Ps. Thanks very much. Patreons for the microphone buffery-sock type thing.

Dr G 1:22
Ah, the pop filter.

Dr Rad 1:24
Yes, exactly. I can say however many damn Ps I want now. Peas and ham. Peas and ham, peas and carrots.

Dr G 1:31
Mind your P’s and Q’s, please.

Dr Rad 1:34
I never do.

Dr G 1:36
Just like the patricians.

Dr Rad 1:38
Exactly. Well, welcome Dr, G, so good to see you again.

Dr G 1:42
Likewise.

Dr Rad 1:44
So we are hosting an ancient Roman History podcast, if you somehow manage to miss the introduction, and we are tracing the journey of Rome from the founding of the city and Dr G, I think this might be the last episode before we cross the boundary to a new century.

Dr G 2:07
That’s very exciting.

Dr Rad 2:08
It is. I honestly kind of got very comfortable with the four hundreds. I kind of felt like we were never gonna leave.

Dr G 2:16
But time marches forward.

Dr Rad 2:19
Indeed it does. Before we get into 402 BCE, which is where we are up to, Dr G, I thought we should probably recap on what was a momentous year in 403 BCE.

Dr G 2:30
Yes. Now, if memory serves, 403 was the start of what will be the introduction of Camillus.

Dr Rad 2:38
It was, I mean, it was very, we’re touching that. Yeah, exactly.

Dr G 2:44
That’s the big standout for me, anyway. Me of few and fragmentary sources.

Dr Rad 2:49
Yes, yes, I understand you’re grasping at straws.

Dr G 2:54
Ouch.

Dr Rad 2:55
Yes. Now look 403. For Livy, it was certainly a bumpy year, because we had lots of speechifying from Appius Claudius, of course, saying a lot of things that were quite frankly, downright offensive.

Dr G 3:09
Typical Appius Claudius behavior, I would say.

Dr Rad 3:13
Yeah, and yet, there was an element of pragmatism to what he had to say. I acknowledge that. But really the reason why he was speechifying, Dr G, was that there were enormous issues, once again, between the patricians and the plebeians, because we are, of course, still in the Conflict of the Orders.

Dr G 3:34
That situation, it will have to resolve at some point. Or will it?

Dr Rad 3:38
Yeah, and it’s definitely the ongoing repercussions about this idea of soldiers serving all year round, the idea of military pay. These are the kinds of things that they are dealing with whilst waging a very long term campaign against the city of Veii, which is an Etruscan place.

Dr G 3:57
Yes, and Etruscans, they’re just to the north of the Romans, there’s a lot of cross cultural exchange going on, and it has been for a long time, but it seems that the conflict is coming to a head, as it were, in this period. So it is, we’re seeing an escalation of the conflict.

Dr Rad 4:16
Yeah, it’s been going on. It’s been keeping us company, really, all throughout the four hundreds. You know, every now and then, just when we think things are getting peaceful, conflict with they appears again.

Dr G 4:25
Well, yes, and if you’ll indulge me.

Dr Rad 4:27
Oh, I always am willing to indulge you.

Dr G 4:30
Since I lack vast amounts of source material

Dr Rad 4:34
fair enough,

Dr G 4:34
I thought I would do a little bit of a recap on, like, some of the touchstones of the relationship between Veii and Rome so far.

Dr Rad 4:42
Oh, okay, yeah, this is a recap. I’m settling in.

Dr G 4:46
Sit back and relax, listeners. So we have Romulus’ victory over Veii very early.

Dr Rad 4:56
Just how short of source material are you?

Dr G 4:59
Very! It’s embarrassing how few sources I have. Ancus Marcius also is reputed to have a victory over Veii. Then we have a couple of characters, and I’m not sure that we’ve touched on them very much in particular, Aulus and Caelius Verbenna.

Dr Rad 5:20
Now, these are people whose names are familiar to me because of the Servius Tullius connection.

Dr G 5:27
Now, these are brothers from Vulci, and Rome is thought to have been in some sort of mediation with Veii about receiving these two.

Dr Rad 5:38
Right.

Dr G 5:39
And then we have Servius Tullius himself having his own war with Veii.

Dr Rad 5:43
Hmmm, he does.

Dr G 5:46
And then there’s a whole Tarquinius mystery. Is it Tarquinius Priscus? Is it Tarquinius Superbus? There is a request for Veii to send their master craftsman, a guy called Vulca, to come to Rome to do some terracotta work.

Dr Rad 6:04
Sounds important.

Dr G 6:06
It is because it’s related to the gods, and apparently some of the things in the Capitoline Temple, the very early version-

Dr Rad 6:14
Ooo I remember that

Dr G 6:16
-were produced by this master craftsman from Veii,

Dr Rad 6:20
Typical Etruscans.

Dr G 6:21
So a little bit of cultural exchange, and then we’re right back into conflict.

Dr Rad 6:26
Actual conflict.

Dr G 6:27
Actual conflict. So they support Taquinius Superbus when he’s exiled from Rome; a bit of a safe haven for him there…

Dr Rad 6:34
Because they’re the worst.

It certainly doesn’t put them in Rome’s good books. And when we get to the Republic, almost the first thing that happens is Valerius Publicola, very famous, very loved by the people.

Absolutely.

Dr G 6:49
He triumphs over Veii in 509.

Dr Rad 6:52
Naturally.

Dr G 6:53
Doesn’t take him long to be like, You know what? Veii’s no good. We need to deal with that, it doesn’t matter if we don’t have kings anymore,

Dr Rad 6:59
They’re too close,

Dr G 7:00
They’re too close, and we don’t like it

Dr Rad 7:01
Too close. Too close for comfort!

Dr G 7:04
Way too close. And you know, who else thinks they’re too close?

Dr Rad 7:07
Sammy Davis Jr.

Dr G 7:11
Well, yes. But also the Fabii

Dr Rad 7:14
Ah, of course.

Dr G 7:15
Yeah, the whole gens goes to war against Veii. Completely unsuccessful. Wipes them all out, basically. Except for one, apparently,

Dr Rad 7:24
Ohhh he managed to spread his seed.

Dr G 7:27
And lucky, otherwise, the family would have been gone absolutely. So part of the issue for the Fabii seems to be that their territory is part of the adjacent landscape of Veii’s area of control.

Dr Rad 7:42
Wait, are you telling me that patricians were acting out of self interest?

Dr G 7:46
I would never suggest such a thing.

Dr Rad 7:49
Wow.

Dr G 7:50
But I might openly tell you, it’s certainly what’s going on. It seems in 477, and it’s a big loss.

Dr Rad 7:59
It is.

Dr G 8:00
It’s a blow for Rome. There’s no question about that moment.

Dr Rad 8:03
A moment of silence for Camera.

Dr G 8:06
This leads to a truce between Veii and Rome in 474, which quickly is overturned by Veii, because they don’t seem to care about that truce.

Dr Rad 8:14
Why would they? They just really, really won a massive victory.

Dr G 8:17
Yeah, and they use that truce to then take Fidenae.

Dr Rad 8:20
Ah Fidenae.

Dr G 8:22
Yeah, going back into the memory books

Dr Rad 8:24
Such a sore spot.

Dr G 8:26
And this really makes Rome mad, and they’re like, You know what, not happy about this, and they’re even less happy when they find out that they has elevated a guy called Lars Tolumnius to be the king.

Dr Rad 8:37
Ah Lars Tolumnius.

Dr G 8:38
It doesn’t end well for him. I think there was some stabbing to the groin. It wasn’t great.

Dr Rad 8:45
No, it wasn’t.

Dr G 8:46
But the Faliscans, who are nearby neighbors as well, they support Veii in this offensive against Rome, led by Lars Tolumnius. Doesn’t go well; Veii loses.

Dr Rad 8:56
They do.

Dr G 8:57
A new truce is formed.

Dr Rad 8:59
It is indeed

Dr G 9:00
So that’s and that’s what 437

Dr Rad 9:04
Well, if we believe the dates, yeah.

Dr G 9:08
I would suggest caution. But let’s say hypothetically, 437 that we’ve got this whole relationship between Veii and Rome that extends back right to the early kingship period, as far as our written sources are concerned. And this would probably make sense, because they’re so close geographically.

Dr Rad 9:26
Well, that’s just it. I mean, there’s always, I think going to be that conflict between the Etruscans in general and the Romans, because the Romans aspire to be a great empire in the sense that they want to expand. Obviously, like, I’m not saying right at this point. They’re like, Oh, and a Mediterranean Empire would be lovely, but they obviously want to expand. They obviously are an ambitious people’s, let’s say, and the Etruscans therefore gonna stand in their way. You know.

Dr G 9:55
Yeah, and there’s nothing quite like having your close neighbor sort of just. Sort of push the fence one meter, exactly, cutting off a little bit of your space, to open up a little bit of space for them taking your cow, yeah. And when you say, excuse me, yeah,

Dr Rad 10:13
excuse me,

Dr G 10:14
excuse me, what are you doing? And it’s like, no, no. That fence has always been there, yeah?

Dr Rad 10:21
And that’s when they go to the central records department and they have to put an application to look at the property boundaries.

Dr G 10:27
Everybody’s got to look at the standing stone ring. Like, Oh, guys, did you move that rock in the night? No, certainly not. Not I.

Dr Rad 10:34
Not I. Way too heavy.

Dr G 10:36
And when the cows start moving in a different language, and you’re like, wait a minute

Dr Rad 10:41
Excuse me?

Dr G 10:44
Are you speaking Etruscan? And it’s like, moo,

Dr Rad 10:46
Yeah, exactly suspicious.

Dr G 10:48
So yeah, we’ve got this sort of long history of conflict. This long build up has is on the cards. So it’s not a surprise that we’re now in this what seems to be like a bit of a showdown situation.

Dr Rad 11:00
It is a showdown, as I said, Harry Potter, Voldemort, one of them has to die in order for this situation to work. And that’s where we were at last time. So in 403, there was a there was a lot of debate about what was going to happen internally, as in, like, where were they going to take this whole idea of winter service and military pay, and how this was going to work. And this why Appius Claudius got on his little soapbox, but it took a disaster at Veii, you know, on the front lines during this siege warfare that they’ve got going on in order to win everybody over to the idea of, look, guys, we’ve just got a soldier on and do our bit. And Rome ended up in a really lovely place in that we had all these people volunteering to serve. Essentially, this story is clearly trying to tell us that this is a moment when we see an expansion of the cavalry in Rome, because we had the men-who-have-horses,-but-the-state-doesn’t-pay-for-them-yet club turn into the men-who-have-horses-and-the-state-pays-for-them club.

Dr G 11:56
Sweet.

Dr Rad 11:57
I know. So we’ve obviously got the expansion of the army, which is following on the back of this idea of military pay and people who actually serving all year round, potentially, and that’s kind of where we ended up. So Rome was in a really happy place, because everyone felt like, you know what, we’re all working together.

Dr G 12:14
Although, having the equestrians have their cavalry side paid for by the state. Does sound like rich people giving a handout to other rich people? And I’m not sure that I’m on board with that…

Dr Rad 12:27
Isn’t that what Rome is all about?

Dr G 12:30
No wonder the Conflict of the Orders isn’t over.

Dr Rad 12:32
Exactly, exactly. And so 403, we did end up in a happy place, in that everyone felt really awesome about everyone volunteering, not just cavalry, infantry, two lots of people saying, Sign me up. I’ll do whatever it takes. Appius Claudius, you’re the man. And that’s kind of where we ended up in a in a real party situation, yeah. And so I think it’s time for me, for us, to delve into 402 BCE.

All right. Dr, G, given your paucity of source material. Please tell me who are the magistracies for 402 BCE?

Dr G 13:39
Thank you for this gift. It’ll be the last time I speak in this episode. Listen carefully. So we have six military tribunes with consular power.

Dr Rad 13:50
Six you say? Methinks Rome might be at war.

Dr G 13:54
It is an awful lot, maybe too many. Anyway, we have Gaius Servilius Ahala, one of our recent favorites, one of our recent guys, previously military tribune with consular power in 408 and 407 is bad. We then have Quintus Servilius Fidenas. This is the start of what will be an illustrious career.

Dr Rad 14:21
And clearly he has some sort of relation to the colony of Fidenae, I would say.

Dr G 14:26
One would assume or the conquest of Fidenae.

Dr Rad 14:29
Exactly.

Dr G 14:30
Yeah. Then we have Lucius Verginius Opiter Tricostus Esquilinus.

Dr Rad 14:37
Unusual name.

Dr G 14:39
Oh, well, see, this is why we’re friends. I’ve written “most unusual name” in my notes.

Dr Rad 14:44
I mean, most of it’s fine. It’s that Opiter.

Dr G 14:48
Opiter is odd, and I don’t think we’ve seen it before.

Dr Rad 14:51
We certainly have not. All the rest totally normal.

Dr G 14:53
Yeah. And Opiter is a praenomen. So to give the full extent of his name. He’s: Lucius Verginiu, son of Lucius, granson of Opiter, Tricostus Esquilinus. So Opiter is the name of the grandfather. And you would think, well, that’s odd, because the prinomens follow a very sort of specific pattern. There’s not that many of them. We haven’t encountered an Opiter before. What’s going on? Now we have a very late source called the “Fragments of Praenomens”,

Dr Rad 15:27
Oh, okay

Dr G 15:27
Which is amazing.

Dr Rad 15:28
I’ve never heard of it before. Tell me more.

Dr G 15:30
The “Fragmentvm de Praenominibus”

Dr Rad 15:34
Well done. Well done.

Dr G 15:35
Yeah, thank you, tripping over my Latin wherever I can. And the suggestion there is that Opiter is the name given to a son whose father had died but whose grandfather still lived.

Dr Rad 15:49
Wow.

Dr G 15:50
Yeah. Like, yeah. This is a sort of complicated scenario where, yeah, the first generation is missing somehow at the birth of the child, yeah, but I don’t know why that would necessarily so now you have to call so whatever happened in this family line? The guy called Opiter is the guy who must have been born without his own father, right, having been alive at the time.

Dr Rad 16:15
It’s quite a family history in that name then.

Dr G 16:17
Yeah

Dr Rad 16:18
And the twist

Dr G 16:19
Plot twist! Yeah, not everybody lives. Disaster. So we might see some of those sorts of names coming up again, but it does tend to be quite unusual.

Dr Rad 16:30
I’m intrigued, yes.

Dr G 16:32
Likewise, we also have Quintus Sulpicius Camerinus Cornutus.

Dr Rad 16:40
Sounds like a delicious ice cream.

Dr G 16:43
What flavor do would you like? Camerinus Cornutus, of course.

Dr Rad 16:46
Exactly. I love a Cornutus in the summer.

Dr G 16:49
This guy is also new to the role, but he does have form. There is a bit of a legacy with this family as well. Then I don’t think we’ve seen a Cornutus for a little while.

Dr Rad 16:59
No, but I feel like we have. And, you know, I probably should mention, Dr G, because I’m assuming that Cornetto ice creams are found worldwide, but they may indeed just be an Australian delight. So I’m just going to say that that’s what I’m referring to. I believe they’re at least in the UK, but yeah, for anyone else who lives in a non Cornetto land, I apologize for my in-joke about ice cream,

Dr G 17:22
If you do not have cornettos, please like, share and subscribe and tell us all about what ice creams you do have.

Dr Rad 17:29
Exactly, we’d love to know.

Dr G 17:32
So the chief legacy of the Cornetto is that you can – it’s about eating the cone as well as the ice cream. You think to yourself, that’s not special. But somehow, when you’re a child, that’s very special.

Dr Rad 17:41
It is, yeah.

Dr G 17:44
So the Cornuti or Cornutii, I suppose I should say, go back to the Regal period.

Dr Rad 17:50
Okay.

Dr G 17:51
One of these guy’s ancestors is somebody who was conspiring to restore the Tarquins back into power. Super. So we’re talking an arch conservative family.

Dr Rad 18:02
Yeah. Uh-oh you’re in trouble.

Dr G 18:09
And then jumping forward 50 or so years, yeah, another Cornutii was one of the decemvirs, so the form is strong with this one.

Dr Rad 18:22
I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Dr G 18:24
Let us not go back to those dark days.

Dr Rad 18:28
Where did that take us? Like 20 episodes to get through the Decemvirate which apparently lasted for two years, disaster.

Dr G 18:35
This is what happens when you make a mess out of the political situation. Guys, we have to spend ages trying to figure out what’s going on. Our fifth military tribune with consular power is Aulus Manlius Vulso Capitolinus, also previously military tribune with consular power in 405, and you might see him again in the future.

Dr Rad 18:57
I think I might.

Dr G 18:57
And last, but certainly not least, Maelius Sergius Fidenas.

Dr Rad 19:04
Another with the connection to Fidenae.

Dr G 19:07
Indeed, and he was previously in the same post in 404. So yeah, we’ve got a so it’s kind of like a balance between people who are new to the role, yeah, and people who have served before.

Dr Rad 19:19
Indeed, it is. Well, I’m exhausted, end of episode,

Dr G 19:24
And we’re done. Thanks for tuning in.

Dr Rad 19:26
Yeah. Okay, so as you pointed out, we do have a real mixture of people who are serving as consular tribunes. However, one thing that we do not have a mixture of, Dr G, is patricians and plebeians. Once again, it’s an entirely patrician cast of characters.

Dr G 19:40
It is a clean sweep for the elite.

Dr Rad 19:42
Yes, it is now, as you can imagine, given the fact that we had a disaster at Veii last time, the Romans are very focused on what’s happening at Veii at this point in time. However, unfortunately, they don’t seem to be able to multitask, because whilst they’re focusing on Veii they neglect the new garrison at Anxur.

Dr G 20:04
Uh oh. Now Anxur has come up before, hasn’t it?

Dr Rad 20:08
We just spoke about it. They have just conquered it. So it’s a very recent addition to the Roman, dare I say, Empire…

Dr G 20:17
And they are about to lose it again.

Dr Rad 20:19
Well, okay, so what basically happened was they were obviously feeling pretty confident, I guess, about what was happening there, and they therefore gave a lot of the soldiers furlough. So a lot of the soldiers skipping through the neighboring fields and making daisy chains and going shopping in nearby towns, just having a grand old time. However, even those who were left behind because obviously, they didn’t literally let everybody go, that would be madness. They do have guards, but the guards aren’t really checking people properly. So they’re not getting them to take off their shoes. They’re not getting their laptops, you know, in the tray. They’re just allowing people who are Volscians – and Anxur we should probably say was initially Volscians territory just allowing volscians traders in and out without properly checking. What are they carrying with them? Who are they? Where’s your passport? Where’s your five forms of identification? I’m

Dr G 21:15
I’m just gonna have to look into your cart for a moment.

Dr Rad 21:18
Exactly. Yeah, there’s none of that happening. And so as soon as the Volscians realize, I guess, that this is what’s going on, they very quickly overpower the tiny guard force that has been left behind, and Anxur is retaken.

Dr G 21:33
Oh, disaster.

Dr Rad 21:34
I know. I can’t believe it, because it was such a big win when they took this place, sloppy work. It really is. Now, the only silver lining is that not a lot of Romans perish during this because, of course, they’re all out shopping. I was gonna say they’re all in the fields having picnics and stuff. They’re in the neighboring area, but they’re not actually in the town. Hence the problem. The only people who die are those who’d been left behind because they were too sick to go, which seems really sad.

Dr G 22:00
Oh, okay, so they had worked hard to capture Anxur, but they had been injured in the process, and now they had paid for it with their lives.

Dr Rad 22:08
Well, Livy actually does say sick. I’m not sure if they’re actually I’m not sure if it’s like an injury, per se. He’s not, he’s not very specific.

Dr G 22:15
They’ve just come down with a heavy cold, exactly like I can’t get up.

Dr Rad 22:18
Yeah, go shopping for me. Guys, bring me back a daisy chain. Anyway, so that’s not good news. Now let’s shift our attention today, because I’m sure you’re dying to know what’s happening there. Once again, Dr. G, I find myself in a familiar situation, one which amuses me, but also frustrates me, and that is that the commanders who are in charge at they, at this point in time, seem to be far more preoccupied without doing each other than in actually defeating they. And we have seen this a number of times with our patricians.

Dr G 22:55
I was gonna say this is part of the trouble of being part of the elite is that your primary focus is one upmanship. It is not the good of the state.

Dr Rad 23:06
No, it isn’t. And this is very evident. So basically, not much is happening at bay because they’re just like looking at each other, going, what are you doing? I don’t know what are you doing?

Dr G 23:15
Well, sounds like a classic siege. People have got their magazines out and, you know, solving sudokus together from across the wall, somebody on the defensive side is like, have you tried three in that square?

Dr Rad 23:28
And the commanders are saying, I solve the New York Times crossword puzzle. You what? That’s impossible. Anyway, there’s a little bit more pressure added, though, because all of a sudden, Dr G, Veii has some allies that join the siege.

Dr G 23:43
Oh

Dr Rad 23:44
Yeah, I know. Now, famously, when they went to the rest of Etruria and said, Hey, how about we Etruscan power this and just defeat Rome together? And they all said, How about no?

Dr G 23:56
With our powers combined, we are Captain Etruria!

Dr Rad 23:59
Exactly. And they said, No, we’re not doing that. The suits are lame and we can’t be bothered. So no one was perhaps expecting that this was going to happen. But Appius Claudius did warn that this was a possibility. You know that you don’t know how long the Etruscans are going to allow Veii to fly solo. And sure enough, we get the Capenates and the Faliscans joining in the fun. Now, this actually makes complete sense. It’s not because they’re looking at Veii going, Oh, look at them all alone fighting Rome. It’s because they are relatively close to Veii.

Dr G 24:36
I was gonna say, is it because they’re the next dominos to fall?

Dr Rad 24:39
Exactly. They’ve put two and two and two together. It’s taken a couple of years, but they’ve gone wait a second…

Dr G 24:44
Hold up…

Dr Rad 24:45
If there’s no more Veii, that means that the Romans are gonna be looking at us.

Dr G 24:49
Veii is a great buffer place. We should probably retain that,

Dr Rad 24:54
Exactly, and they suddenly realize this. Now I actually do have a map which is uncharacteristic

Dr G 25:00
I was gonna say, goodness me. Dr. Rad, what is going on?

Dr Rad 25:03
Because I knew you’re gonna say, I knew you’re gonna say, where exactly are these places?

Dr G 25:06
Yeah, because I certainly haven’t looked them up, because I don’t have enough source material to know that they were even mentioned.

Dr Rad 25:11
Well, look, I’m glad I had a map, because it’s really difficult to describe this. They are north of a, like, directly north of a so it is literally a domino effect that we’re talking about here. Look, they’re slightly, like the Capenates are probably slightly northeast, perhaps, but essentially, if Veii falls, you can totally see that they are the next in line, and the Faliscans are just a little bit beyond them.

Dr G 25:34
Alright, so they both have a pretty vested interest in making sure Veii has a high level of defense and gets through this siege unscathed.

Dr Rad 25:42
Yeah, absolutely. Now, in terms of who these people are, obviously, we don’t have tons of information about them, but they seem to have spoken a dialect of Latin.

Dr G 25:53
Oh, intriguing.

Dr Rad 25:54
I know, right.

Dr G 25:55
This would make Veii then a cultural outpost amongst Etrurian cities, if they’re surrounded by Latin speakers.

Dr Rad 26:04
A dialect of Latin. I mean, I don’t know how close that we I don’t know how close we’re talking, but yes, yeah, it is interesting, certainly. But it just speaks to the melting pot that is this region where Etruria and the Latins are meeting.

Dr G 26:18
Yeah, definitely.

Dr Rad 26:19
Yeah. Anywho now, the Romans already did not like the Faliscans, which I think is a shame, because I find their name delightful, but this is because they had fought on the wrong side in the fight over Fidenae, which you mentioned in your recap.

Dr G 26:35
Mistakes were made.

Dr Rad 26:36
Mistakes were made. Now what this means is we have got reinforced troops massively hitting the Roman camp. Okay, the Romans are scared out of their little tunics because this is completely unexpected, and it seems like the people of they weren’t expecting it either, like the Capenates and the Faliscans literally just like, rock up. And they’re like, let’s do this. I gotta get home before my slow cooker goes off. Yeah. Now where they hit the Roman camp is right where Maelius Sergius is commanding.

Dr G 27:12
Awkward.

Dr Rad 27:12
Yeah, okay. They think that maybe this is a sign that all of Etruria is uniting against them now, which would be terrifying.

Dr G 27:23
It’s a sign, guys, they’re all coming. It’s just these ones got here first.

Dr Rad 27:27
Yeah exactly, these are the closest. Now the people in the town of a also feel their morale rising, because they’re also like, oh my god, is this a sign that all of Etruria is uniting against the Romans. So everyone who’s having very strong emotions about this scenario here. Yeah, and it basically means that the Roman camp is being attacked from two different sides.

Dr G 27:49
It’s never a good sign in a military situation, when you’re you’ve got to defend against two frontiers.

Dr Rad 27:55
Exactly.

Dr G 27:56
Anybody who study any warfare is already being like, Uh oh, yeah, not looking good.

Dr Rad 28:00
Don’t be surrounded. Yeah. Now this is obviously totally surprising, and so the soldiers are really struggling with this sudden scenario, and they’re not really dealing with either attack very well. As a result, it’s, I think, a bit of a scramble, if we’re being honest,

Dr G 28:15
I was gonna say, and it’s like, you know, it takes time to put down your crossword and put your breastplate on, get yourself in formation and think about whether it’s going to be a tortoise or whatever.

Dr Rad 28:25
Yeah. So this particular camp, they’re hoping that the Romans in the main camp will see what’s happening, or find out what’s happening and send help stat. Then they would be able, with their reinforcements to deal with the fact that they’re being attacked from completely different directions. However, the main camp is under the control of a different military tribune with consular power, one Verginius,

Dr G 28:52
Hmm okay.

Dr Rad 28:54
Now Sergius and Verginius. These are our military tribunes with consular power that have major beef and hate each other’s guts.

Dr G 29:05
Oh no. Why do we think that is? Or does Livy give us some rationale here?

Dr Rad 29:09
No, just that they hate each other.

Dr G 29:12
It’s just the way it goes. When you’re a patrician, some of those guys you can’t stand, and some of them are your best friends.

Dr Rad 29:18
Exactly, exactly. Now back in the main camp, Verginius does hear about the danger that the Romans are in, but he refuses to do anything about it, saying that, look, if Sergius needs help, he’ll ask for it. I’m not going to send help. If he doesn’t ask for it, he can handle it, obviously, up until that point, but he has to ask. Sergius refuses to ask for help because he does not want Verginius stealing his victory. He would rather lose than have Verginius come to his rescue and win.

Dr G 29:50
Oh well, Sergius, I hate to break it to you, but that’s hubris, and I don’t know if it’s going to work out for you.

Dr Rad 29:55
It is not going to work out for you

Dr G 29:56
This is what. So I think this is where virtus, this idea of Roman manliness, which is all about the courage and being on the front foot and doing it yourself and all of that kind of stuff, gets twisted potentially into some dangerous behaviors, just ego that may not play out very well.

Dr Rad 30:19
Yeah, so basically, we have the most hideous sandwich situation I’ve ever seen, where Romans are being attacked on either side, they’re just being slaughtered in the middle of these two attacking forces, and eventually they just have to give up and run.

Dr G 30:34
Oh no. And the central camp has done nothing.

Dr Rad 30:37
Done nothing because they’ve been waiting for a specific request for help.

Dr G 30:42
Lame.

Dr Rad 30:43
Yeah. Now only a small amount of those who manage to run away actually make it back to the main camp, the main part of the army that manages to get out, plus Sergius, they run back to Rome.

Dr G 30:57
Now, fair enough, I will probably do that as well be like guys, yeah.

Dr Rad 31:01
Now the advantage of this happening is that Sergius then throws Verginius right under the bus, places all the blame for what has just happened on wiginius and demanding that he be recalled and lieutenants placed in charge of the main camp.

Dr G 31:19
Oooh. So deposed actually from being a military tribune with consular power?

Dr Rad 31:24
Well, sorry, actually, reface that, I think. Just recalled from his command.

Dr G 31:28
Okay.

Dr Rad 31:29
Yeah, yeah, so recalled from being in charge of the main camp. The Senate discussed the issue. They are supremely unimpressed by what is going on here. And it kind of seems like maybe the Senate as well has split loyalties between Sergius and Verginius as well. There’s a lot of slappy fighting going,

Dr G 31:52
Well, look, this doesn’t surprise me. This is kind of we’re now in the factional politics.

Dr Rad 31:57
It is 100% factional, yeah. So no one is really thinking about, hey, what about Rome? What about the state? They’re all just thinking about these guys. Eventually, the leading senators say, You know what, rather than get caught up in this beef between these two guys, let’s just not deal with their fighting. Let’s just ignore them and just get rid of all the tribunes for this year and have elections early. But just like clean slate it guys, can’t be bothered. Can’t be bothered.

Dr G 32:29
Okay, but is the consequence of this that they will recall all of the armed forces that are sitting under those military tribunes that are outside Veii?

Dr Rad 32:39
I don’t think so. Because obviously, given that we’ve got a siege going on here, and there would be people who are underneath these men, I think that they’d be temporarily in charge whilst they sorted out elections, right?

Dr G 32:51
Okay.

Dr Rad 32:51
They don’t specifically say this, but there’s no word of ending the siege, so I presume that that’s what would happen, that they would just leave someone in charge and get some new ones? Yeah,

Dr G 33:01
Yeah, the Senate sends you a little letter being like, you’re out of here having elections.

Dr Rad 33:05
Either that or those men continue to serve until their replacements arrive. But yeah, there’s no, there’s no mention made of ending the siege at Veii. It’s just this situation of you know what? It would just be easier just to toss these ones out and get new ones, an attitude I do not endorse when it comes to consumable goods in our modern day world,

Dr G 33:24
but certainly applicable for politicians,

Dr Rad 33:25
It certainly is. Now the other military tribunes with consular power who actually really are the victims here because they’ve done nothing wrong. They’re okay with this. So the senators are getting ready to vote, but then Sergius and Verginius come and say, oh my god, can like, can you just like, not do this? It’d be like, so embarrassing if this is how our careers end. Like, this is how our, you know, stint as military tribunes with consular power, like, came to an end? Like, please just like, don’t like,

Dr G 33:59
But isn’t this already having been instigated by Sergius in some way?

Dr Rad 34:05
Oh, he 100% brought it upon himself.

Dr G 34:07
But now, but he doesn’t want he’s like, now that the Senate has decided that they’re just going to get rid of this lot, he’s like, Excuse me, that’s not the solution?

Dr Rad 34:15
I think he was hoping that Verginius would get recalled and he would be able to trot off and, you know, go back to the campaign.

Dr G 34:22
Sergius is having a sad in Rome.

Dr Rad 34:25
Yeah, absolutely. So they had decided that they were just going to veto what the Senate had decided. Because at this point in time, obviously senatorial decisions are not like legally binding. It’s just like a recommendation, like, have you thought of having Have you considered elections? Yeah, and obviously, if everyone was going to go along with it, I don’t know, you know, I don’t know how much they really could have done here, but they were basically like, No, this is not going to happen over my dead body. I’m not going to give up power day early. And don’t you dare ask me. Now this is where the tribunes of the plebs come into the story.

Dr G 35:03
Ah ha.

Dr Rad 35:03
They had said nothing up to this point. They’ve been very good. They had been itching to say something, but they thought it was best not to, after everything that happened the year before, what was Appius Claudius giving an epic speech that just never ended. We don’t want to impose that on anyone.

Dr G 35:18
We don’t want to sit through that again.

Dr Rad 35:19
We do not. But now they demand that the military tribunes, as in Sergius and Verginius, obey the Senate, or it’s straight to prison with the two of you, and you can think about what you have done.

Dr G 35:33
We’ve got a naughty room. It’s time to put some people in it.

Dr Rad 35:36
Exactly. Now, this is where Ahala makes his appearance.

Dr G 35:41
Mr Armpit himself

Dr Rad 35:43
Indeed. So he is one of the other military tribunes with consular power. He has done nothing wrong up until this point.

Dr G 35:49
A military tribune with consular power of the name Ahala?

Dr Rad 35:53
Yes, he was the first one on your list.

Dr G 35:55
Well, no, I mean, he’s a military tribune with consular power, as far as I’m aware.

Dr Rad 36:00
Wait, what did I say? He’s a military tribune with consular power. So,

Dr G 36:06
Yeah, I thought you said he was a tribune.

Dr Rad 36:08
No, okay, let me rephrase this. Okay, so the tribunes of the plebs have come along and done the threat, then one of the other military tribunes with consular power responds to this threat.

Dr G 36:19
Okay, okay.

Dr Rad 36:20
All right, so Ahala makes his appearance, and he says, I’d like to see the tribunes of the plebs try to throw one of us in prison. You have absolutely no right to do that. Once again, tributes of the plebs going mad with power and imagining they have all these magical possibilities.

Dr G 36:43
Yeah. I mean, they’re supposed to be looking after the plebeian concerns. You know, you can’t go after patricians like this.

Dr Rad 36:49
Yeah. He’s like, You know what? I don’t think you have the guts to do it anyway. All you guys do is hang around Rome and wait for fights between the military tribunes with consular power, and then you just swoop in and cause problems right now. If you keep making this an issue, Ahala is prepared to name a dictator. He’ll name a dictator right now, and then the dictator can do whatever the hell they like, and the tribune of the plebs can’t do nothing about it.

Dr G 37:21
Okay, well, there’s a big threat.

Dr Rad 37:23
Exactly, and everyone’s like Ahala, that was amazing. We love you and we love the sentiment. So the other military tribunes, they all agree, after this whole exchange, that it would do best just to throw the towel in and resign early. Okay?

Dr G 37:41
So rather than put a dictator in place, they’re going to take the recommended measure by the Senate?

Dr Rad 37:48
Yeah, and just resign early.

Dr G 37:51
Yeah, so it’s gotten – the whole thing – tensions have escalated to such a point, and people have been making all sorts of threats, yeah, and now they’re like, Okay, we’ll step down early.

Dr Rad 38:00
It kind of ends abruptly. I was, I was gearing up for something really epic here, but that’s where it ends.

Dr G 38:05
Yeah, look, I feel like that. That is not the situation. It doesn’t feel narratively like what you think it’s going to be.

Dr Rad 38:16
It really doesn’t, especially because I kind of agree with Ahala, I don’t think the tribunes of the plebs have the right to throw the military tribunes with consular power into prison.

Dr G 38:25
No, that would seem unlikely. They could probably maybe suggest it to the people and see what happens,

Dr Rad 38:33
Yeah, sure

Dr G 38:33
And maybe put it to a vote, that might be a possibility.

Dr Rad 38:37
Maybe that’s what they were hinting at. We’re going to start a lengthy bureaucratic process. You just wait and see.

Dr G 38:44
Roll up, roll up. It’s the first round of voting. Or will we put some patricians in jail?

Dr Rad 38:50
That’s really all that happens in 402. That’s it.

Dr G 38:53
Okay. Yeah, all right. Now I do have some details, most of which I think I can’t relate to you right now, because I don’t know where we are in terms of the actual siege itself and the fragmentary details that I do have, I don’t think are currently relevant.

Dr Rad 39:18
Well, I think this is because of the dating issue. So I’m going to give you a bit of a hint, Dr, G because I feel like it’ll be useful for you. So in the next year, in 401 BCE, there is this reference where one of the historical characters we are dealing with, he makes reference to how long the siege, slash, war against Veii has been going on. And it’s wrong. Like, according to, according to what Livy has been building up, it does, like the numbers don’t add up, which is exactly what I said to you and we got into this whole thing. Oh, numbers don’t add up. They’ve added two years because they want to make it a 10 year conflict, so that it’s like the Trojan War. So sometimes these little mistakes creep in, which let us know that the dating is a little off. So I think you’re probably right to be suspicious of where I’m supposedly at and where you’re supposedly at. But yeah, you can see that potentially, the Romans are stringing things out a little bit, and they’ve inserted some time, definitely.

Dr G 40:15
And we’ve known that Rome has this issue with chronology, and it’s had it for a little while now.

Dr Rad 40:21
I have a chronological issue. It can’t be fixed. It’s chronic.

Dr G 40:27
How long has it been happening? A long time.

Dr Rad 40:30
Or has it?

Dr G 40:32
Ehh the questions. So the chronological issue seems most evident in the discrepancy between some of the source material, sure. So Livy thinks we’re in what, 402.

Dr Rad 40:46
Yeah.

Dr G 40:46
And it has been the case that he has been in discrepancy with Diodorus Siculus for years now, about where they’re up to in terms of the timeline, yeah, because Diodorus Siculus is following along pretty methodically. He doesn’t always get everything right, but he is about two to three years ahead of Livy at every turn. So the year he tells us that Aristocrates is the Archon in Athens right is the year 399, to 398, okay? And that’s the same year that he lists six military tribunes, although only names five, he says they’re six, but only names five, and that list matches up almost in its entirety with the list that we get for 402.

Dr Rad 41:34
Gotcha.

Dr G 41:35
So this discrepancy has been around for a little while now, but we don’t know how to resolve it, and the Romans don’t know how to resolve it either. No. And there’s obviously that really attractive 10 year Homeric element to the siege of a which you’ve mentioned before, yeah, as well. So there’s a literary reason for why they want it to be 10 years.

Dr Rad 41:59
Oh, yeah. And look, I always say this also has something to do with, like, family traditions as well, like the Verginii being placed at this moment, as you’ll see when I get into my next year as well. I think you’ll see that, yeah, it all kind of, there’s a reason that it’s all coming together this way. So I’d say he’s relying potentially, on bit of family traditions here.

Dr G 42:20
Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah. And so one of the ways that I’ve tried to navigate real absence of source material is looking at Dio Cassius.

Dr Rad 42:31
Okay…

Dr G 42:34
So a small segue. Dio Cassius, dear friends of the podcast, this is a third century CE historian.

Dr Rad 42:45
So, yeah, hang on. Let me think so that means that he’s like, Hang on. Let me think that means that he is about what, 600 years after?

Dr G 42:51
600 years out, yeah. So does he know what he’s talking about? We don’t know. But the trouble for us with Dio Cassius right now, because he does write a history of Rome from the beginning, he does the whole analytic thing, very ambitious, and he goes up to his own time period, which is kind of amazing. And we have good, good chunks of Dio Cassius, but not for this period of the history. We’ve only got fragments, we’ve got little bits that are preserved in later epitomes, right? And we’ve got little bits and pieces that seem to be preserved in a Constantinian source.

Dr Rad 43:25
Right.

Dr G 43:26
So the things that I can tell you about the siege that are in Dio Cassius, I’m going to keep in reserve, because I’m pretty sure they’re going to come up later.

Dr Rad 43:36
I would say so.

Dr G 43:37
And I’m not going to mention them now, but I do want to flag that this is a historian who’s also done some work on this, and we’re not really quite sure entirely about his early sources. Either we’re not certain that he’s reading Livy or basing everything that he’s written about this period from Livy.

Dr Rad 43:53
I was going to ask because obviously Livy would be an obvious source, because he’s earlier.

Dr G 44:00
Exactly, and so chances are he probably had read Livy.

Dr Rad 44:04
Sure.

Dr G 44:04
But it seems like there’s enough differences in his account that he’s as well. He’s using other sources as well. Yeah, some scholars think that he’s using Ennius.

Dr Rad 44:13
Ooh, okay, an early source.

Dr G 44:16
An early source. So ennius is writing in what the second century BCE

Dr Rad 44:20
I think so.

Dr G 44:23
And Ennius writes this big epic, the Annales, which becomes quite famous for the Romans for a really good period of time before it’s overtaken by Virgil’s Aeneid. But that’s also a history and a also interested in the figure of Camillus. So it’s kind of like all of my sources are trying to get me to Camillus, and we’re not there yet.

Dr Rad 44:46
Didn’t even mention him, Dr. G.

Dr G 44:48
So we’re not going to go down that path just yet.

Dr Rad 44:51
No, but He’s coming.

Dr G 44:52
He’s coming.

Dr Rad 44:52
He’s on a horse, and he’s coming.

Dr G 44:55
And then the other thing that I tried to do was, I was like, Look, Veii and Rome have been together unhappily for a while. Now, sure, chances are scholars have looked into this.

Dr Rad 45:05
Yeah, yeah, I would say so.

Dr G 45:07
And then I was like, what would be interesting to know is something from the archeological record?

Dr Rad 45:12
Ooh,

Dr G 45:12
Because we have lots of Etruscan tombs. That’s what is most famously preserved.

Dr Rad 45:17
Absolutely.

Dr G 45:17
But there are other elements of the archeology that still exist, and even though they is very close to Rome, is kind of subsumed into greater Rome these days. There is a lot of excavation work that is happening on the Etruscans in that area, right? So one of the things that I was looking at is a piece by a scholar called Arizza and Rossi.

Dr Rad 45:17
Okay.

Dr G 45:20
And they’re looking at the territory between ve and Rome in the Archaic period.

Dr Rad 45:29
Wow.

Dr G 45:29
So that’s sort of like the sixth century down to the fourth century. So sitting right in the cusp of our zone of interest, actually. And there’s a whole bunch of tombs, which is fine, all very interesting. Some of them are very typically Etruscan. And there’s one in that they’ve been looking at that sort of stands out as being Etruscan in style, but with Roman style grave goods, interesting. So you’ve got this sort of overlapping thing starting to happen in terms of cross cultural fertilization.

Dr Rad 46:20
Would it be worthwhile telling our listeners, what does Etruscan in style mean? Because I think Etruscans have, they do have quite elaborate tombs and like we’re talking about, like rooms, aren’t we like what we might think of as semi mausolem-ish,

Dr G 46:33
Almost like buildings you could live in.

Dr Rad 46:34
Yeah, yeah.

Dr G 46:35
They’re built, sometimes square structures, sometimes circular structures. Depends on the time period, but they do look like little houses, basically. And they’re often inserted a little bit into a hillside where possible, not always, but or going down a little bit. And there is a combination of bodies that have been cremated and bodies that have been inhumed, essentially. So you could have been just buried, or you could have been cremated and put into a little cinerary urn. Yeah, the frescoes inside of these tombs are often an indication of elitism and wealth.

Dr Rad 47:13
Yeah.

Dr G 47:14
Not every tomb is so spectacular, but if you get to see some Etruscan tombs, I would recommend it, but in terms of grave goods, the thing that sort of tipped this example, so this is a tomb that’s sitting between Veii and Rome in this early period is that there was one that contained an aes rude.

Dr Rad 47:36
I have no idea what that is.

Dr G 47:38
Well, an aes rude is like a precursor to currency.

Dr Rad 47:43
Ahhh.

Dr G 47:44
So Rome doesn’t have currency yet. As far as we’re aware, even though it keeps talking about, they keep talking about how much things are, but we’re pretty sure they don’t develop currency just yet.

Dr Rad 47:54
Yeah, I agree.

Dr G 47:55
But they do have what is proto currency, right? And it’s these bronze, unstructured kind of shapes,

Dr Rad 48:04
Ooo like aes! Okay, yeah, okay, gotcha sorry.

Dr G 48:08
That’s just my pronunciation.

Dr Rad 48:09
No, no, no, I’m visualizing it now, and I get where you’re coming from. Yeah,

Dr G 48:12
They’re kind of slightly rectangular, but they’re also, they could kind of be any shape really, but they’re not a coin.

Dr Rad 48:20
Yep.

Dr G 48:20
It’s all done by weight, yes, of course. And so metal content, yeah, you slap down your bronze and you’re like, What about some of this?

Dr Rad 48:28
Yeah, somebody’s still in the Bronze Age, baby.

Dr G 48:32
Like, I’ll give you 10 sacks of grain for it. So there is a trading proto currency happening. One of these is found in one of these Etruscan tombs.

Dr Rad 48:43
Okay, okay.

Dr G 48:44
but they’re thought to be distinctly Roman-Latin in its sort of origin. The other thing that’s happening is that we’ve got defensive locations that they’ve found, yeah, which appear to be on Veii’s side of the Tiber.

Dr Rad 49:01
Ooh, okay.

Dr G 49:02
Yeah, so Rome’s on the south side of the river, Veii’s on the north side. Veii’s already in the more strategic position, if you like, because they could just hop in the river and float down following the current. Rome can’t be happy about this.

Dr Rad 49:17
Row, row, row, your boat.

Dr G 49:19
Yeah, for Rome to go up the river – mission.

Dr Rad 49:22
Yeah.

Dr G 49:22
For Veii, they’re just like, chilling out,

Dr Rad 49:24
yeah,

Dr G 49:25
On their floating device.

Dr Rad 49:26
This is why the Romans are so agitated.

Dr G 49:28
Possibly – a little bit angry. But on this north side of the Tiber, there’s a couple of spots where there’s really clear defensive locations that date from this sort of sixth to fourth century BCE. One of them’s at a place called Colle Santa Agata, which, if you’re in Rome for the Romans listening, is now where the San Filippo Neri Hospital is.

Dr Rad 49:52
Okay.

Dr G 49:53
Must be on the top of a hill.

Dr Rad 49:54
Note to self, yeah.

Dr G 49:56
And another spot called Acquafredda, which is near. The Università Europea di Roma and the so both of these are on hills. They’ve got like a defensive wall, and they’ve also got some rudimentary substructures of drainage, interesting. So there’s ditches and moats and things like, yeah, so using the hill as a bit of it’s like a hill fort situation, yeah.

Dr Rad 50:19
Okay. So basically, the archeology supports this idea that Rome and they were in conflict at around this time.

Dr G 50:28
Definitely that there is a sense in which there’s a defensive policy coming from Veii, and that is presumably in response to the offensive stuff that is coming from Rome.

Dr Rad 50:43
Always thought Rome spews out offensive stuff.

Dr G 50:45
And the other thing that we see in the archeology from this period is that there tends to be a cluster of sort of farms around the edges of the salt flats, which will ultimately become Ostia.

Dr Rad 51:01
Right.

Dr G 51:02
So they is already in control of that area, it would seem.

Dr Rad 51:05
Hoo. No wonder Rome wants to get their hands on it.

Dr G 51:07
Rome is itching.

Dr Rad 51:09
Yeah.

Dr G 51:09
Itching, they’re feeling salty.

Dr Rad 51:11
Think of all those fish you can salt with that.

Dr G 51:15
Exactly, yeah. And so lots of defensive structures in places today, known as Malagrotta and Monte Stallonara,

Dr Rad 51:25
Okay.

Dr G 51:26
Which, again, that’s for the Roman listeners.

Dr Rad 51:28
Yeah, so many of you.

Dr G 51:30
Get out your Maps. Google it.

Dr Rad 51:34
Ciao, Antonio Lara,

Dr G 51:36
So yeah, there is this sense in which Veii is doing a whole bunch of things in this point in time, and over the over those centuries, getting more defensive, and Rome probably becoming more offensive in response, or, you know.

Dr Rad 51:50
Sorry, it’s never gonna stop amusing me that you call Rome so offensive.

Dr G 51:52
So offensive.

Dr Rad 51:53
So offensive.

Dr G 51:57
And I think that’s, that’s my contribution to this episode.

Dr Rad 52:00
That’s an amazing contribution, because archeology is just so not my strong point. And also, you know, knowing where things are in Sydney is challenging enough for me. Rome is a whole other level.

Dr G 52:12
I did have to do some like, specific mapping exercises to try and figure out where things were.

Dr Rad 52:18
Yeah, anybody who knows me knows that I get lost going to places I go literally all the time. So out of the two of us, I’m glad that was you. I was just proud of myself for actually having a map this time. I was going to say that was very impressive. I know, I know. Thank you very much, Guy Bradley, fabulous, fabulous map. Anyway, well, Dr. G, I think that’s probably a good time for us to wrap up. You know what? Turns out, I lied. I think we’re going to need another episode for 401. And therefore it is time for the Partial Pick. All right, Dr. G, the Partial Pick is where we assess Rome’s performance and what can they win in return?

Dr G 53:03
Can they get 50 golden eagles? Let’s find out together.

Dr Rad 53:08
Let’s find out. What’s our first category?

Dr G 53:10
Military Clout.

Dr Rad 53:12
Who That’s rough. I feel like it’s a zero.

Dr G 53:15
They lost Anxur.

Dr Rad 53:16
Can we take off points that we given them previously?

Dr G 53:19
I don’t think so. Sadly, that is a horrible way to mark. I refuse to do it. They lose Anxur. That’s a problem.

Dr Rad 53:29
That is a problem.

Dr G 53:29
They don’t support their own troops when they clearly need help, even though somebody didn’t ask for help.

Dr Rad 53:36
Yeah, such a mess. Like step up, such a mess.

Dr G 53:41
We have Romans running away from a siege.

Dr Rad 53:44
Well, I mean, if they didn’t, they were getting, yeah, they were going to get killed. Yeah, it is quite clear that that is what is going to happen.

Dr G 53:52
Yeah, problems, I think zero. I agree.

Dr Rad 53:54
Yeah. Okay, what’s our next category?

Dr G 53:57
Diplomacy.

Dr Rad 54:00
I feel like, no, there’s, there’s just no, there’s not even internal diplomacy, if there is such a thing, that there is not.

Dr G 54:05
There is not.

Dr Rad 54:06
No.

Dr G 54:06
Expansion?

Dr Rad 54:08
Definitely not. They’ve again, gone backwards.

Dr G 54:11
This is awkward.

Dr Rad 54:12
Oh my god, honestly, it does when you, when you do things like this, year by year, like episode by episode, it really makes you realize, how the hell did they ever get an empire?

Dr G 54:22
I mean, I have questions, because we’re zero of three. We’ve only got two categories. Could this be the episode where Rome gets zero?

Dr Rad 54:34
You know what? The only consolation I can give them, if that is where we’re heading, is that it’s probably a made up year anyway, like, Livy’s probably padding the narrative. I mean, like, obviously 402, existed, but whether it existed it, you know, in this way, in this way, that’s the question.

Dr G 54:51
We’ve got questions.

Dr Rad 54:52
We do.

Dr G 54:53
Virtus?

Dr Rad 54:54
Nope, no, again, it’s like the reverse of virtus.

Dr G 54:58
We’ve done a reverse Uno on virtus for this year.

Dr Rad 55:01
Yeah.

Dr G 55:02
And the citizen score?.

Dr Rad 55:05
I feel like it would be not great, I mean…

Dr G 55:07
It can’t have been great, can it? Because, I mean, first of all, you’ve got the Romans who were sick in Anxur, and they get killed just for being there.

Dr Rad 55:14
And they’ve only been there for, I actually checked it was 406, that they took Anxur, so they’ve been there for a few years, that’s it.

Dr G 55:21
Okay.

Dr Rad 55:21
Yeah, and that’s if the chronology is right, it might be, like, it might be the very next year that this happened. Who knows?

Dr G 55:27
So they’ve been sick for four years, yeah?

Dr Rad 55:31
Well, that’s why I said to you, when you were like, are they injured? I’m like, I don’t think so. It’s been a few years now.

Dr G 55:36
But okay, so there’s Romans living in Anxur at this point in time, and some of them are unwell. They don’t make it out, and they get killed.

Dr Rad 55:42
Yeah.

Dr G 55:42
All right, so that’s not great. That’s not great for citizens. And then you’ve got what I feel like has been overlooked in this patrician back and forth, ambitious, I’m I’m so good, blah, blah, blah, if he doesn’t ask for help, I’m not helping him.

Dr Rad 55:58
Yeah.

Dr G 55:58
Well, it’s plebeians out there getting killed on the battlefield.

Dr Rad 56:01
Absolutely, yeah, so I think it’s zero.

Dr G 56:01
{coughing}

Dr Rad 56:06
You’re choking, choking in your glee, my goodness. Well, there you go. It’s possible that the greatest civilization so great that men think about it every day, multiple times a day, got zero for being a total loser in 402 BCE

Dr G 56:32
Oh, well, that takes the cake.

Dr Rad 56:35
Look, I think that again, I’m gonna silver lining this situation. If this teaches us nothing else. It’s that there is a point to taking off your shoes at the airport. That’s all I take away from this.

Dr G 56:46
Yeah, well someone has to uphold security.

Dr Rad 56:48
Oh, and then, okay, wait, wait, here we go. After school special, here it goes. You need to learn to ask for help when you need it. Dr, G.

Dr G 56:56
Ooo, it’s not a sign of weakness.

Dr Rad 57:01
It is not a sign of weakness, although, in this particular case, militarily, I guess it kind of was, but, well, no, I mean, I mean, like, as in, you know, Rome wasn’t doing so hot, but they had reinforcements there. So, like, they weren’t, like, permanently weak, but yeah, certainly in terms of individuals, you know, got to step up and acknowledge I need help.

Dr G 57:23
Well, and look, and all I can say is, I hope it gets better from here, because this is a real low point for Rome.

Dr Rad 57:29
You know, look, I feel like there must have been probably another year where this happened, but I can’t think of it off top of my head. So I’m gonna go and have to check

Dr G 57:36
I was gonna say I don’t recall. But, you know, we’ve done so many episodes now that may be bound to maybe my memory is on the fritz as well.

Dr Rad 57:43
Yeah, I feel like it’s bound to happen at some point. But, yeah, it’s been a long time since we’ve had an actual zero across the board. Oh Rome.

Dr G 57:50
Goodness me.

Dr Rad 57:52
Thank god I know that 401 has some stuff in it, or this would be a very depressing All right. Dr, G, lovely. Chatting to you as always.

Dr G 58:02
Yes, a pleasure. Until next time.

Dr Rad 58:04
Can I ask? Can you help me to pack up this podcasting equip?

Dr G 58:10
I certainly can.

Dr Rad 58:11
Thank you.

Dr G 58:14
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Partial Historians. On behalf of Dr Rad and myself, we want to say a huge, huge thank you to all of you for enjoying Ancient Rome with us, and a special thank you to our Patreon supporters for loving the show and enabling us to do amazing things like upgrade our audio equipment. So thank you so so much and have a great day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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