Episode 13: Family Before State

This Is The Way: Chinese Philosophy Podcast

Confucianism is well known for prioritizing familial responsibilities and love over other competing demands such as public interest or duties to the state. In this episode we explore two of the best known passages from early Confucianism that some modern scholars believe makes Confucianism morally problematic. The first passage we discuss is the "Upright Gong" passage, Analects 13.18, which has Confucius advocating mutual "covering up" of crimes by fathers and sons. The second passage is Mengzi 7A35, in which Mengzi is asked what the sage king Shun would have done if his father had committed murder. Mengzi's answer, briefly stated, is that Shun would have given up his throne and would have fled with his father to care for him for the rest of his life.
Through these passages we explore questions about justice, consequentialist ethics, and the nature of moral dilemmas (and Confucian ways of handling them).
Many thanks to The Hong Kong Ethics Lab for sponsoring this podcast series.
We thank Lena Li (LI La 李拉 ) for her expert editing and sound engineering. We also thank the blog Warp, Weft & Way for hosting the discussion for this episode.
Want to continue the discussion? Need links to some of the sources mentioned? Go to the support page for this episode on Warp, Weft, and Way.
Co-hosts:
Richard Kim's website
Justin Tiwald's website

Capitole

1. Part I -- Introduction (00:00:00)

2. • Preface to today's topic (00:07:50)

3. Part II -- Family Before State (00:11:28)

4. • Analects 13.18 (Upright Gong) (00:13:14)

5. • Mencius (Mengzi) 7A35 (Shun gives up the empire to save his father) (00:35:11)

6. • Is the scenario in 7A35 conceived by Mencius as a true (strong, tragic) moral dilemma? (00:41:40)

7. • Mencius's recommendation is hard to square with consequentialism (00:48:15)

8. • Closing questions about filial piety and "family first" (00:51:37)