Building a Skills-Based Ecosystem with Jamai Blivin

Work Forces

Jamai Blivin is founder and CEO of Innovate+Educate, a nonprofit focused on big system change to create new employment pathways for workers based on skills and competencies. She is also the author of the new book Status: Reversing Degrees of Discrimination, which argues for an emphasis on skills over degrees when seeking talent. Jamai discusses her background as a connector, her pioneering work in skill-based workforce development, and the next steps needed to realize a truly skills-based ecosystem.

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Transcript:

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Workforces, I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine. And we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Let's dive in.

Kaitlin: Welcome to this episode of Work Forces. We're thrilled to welcome a shining star and good friend working at the intersection of the future of work and learning, Jamai Blivin. Jamai is founder and CEO of Innovate+Educate, a nonprofit focused on big system change to create new employment pathways for workers based on skills and competencies. Jamai is an advocate for youth employment, successful reentry after incarceration, and second and third chances. She's also the author of a new book, STATUS: Reversing Degrees of Discrimination, which argues for an emphasis on skills over degree attainment. We're so glad you can join us today. Welcome, Jamai.

Jamai Blivin: Oh, thank you. It's so good to see both of you.

Julian: Yes, it's so great to see you, Jamai. And we're so thrilled to have you as our inaugural interviewee here on Work Forces. So many people know you professionally, Jamai. I mean, you are the Supreme Connector. And over the years, your conferences and your projects have brought together the most amazing individuals. I usually dread going to conferences, but when I come to yours, I know I'm going to come away with amazing connections and projects and it's all because of you. And the people you bring together really are innovators who are pushing the envelope and getting things done. And so with this in mind, can you give us the highlights of your personal journey that led to where you are? How did you become the connector that you are?

Jamai: Yeah, that's a fun question. I still am teaching our skills training to high school kids. And one of the lessons that we teach is your brand. And I say, you guys, you're going to have a brand. It may not always be good, but you're going to have a brand. And it's really important to know that brand. And my brand is that I connect people and I get shit done. Now people may not always like me guys, but I always get things done. I'm a connector of people. So, taking that back when…I don't know…I was probably was born that way. In my book I talk about my childhood and having to sell donuts door to door until they were all gone when I was nine or 10. So I've been a salesperson forever, but, I guess I'm a sales person with a passion. And I can't sell anything unless I believe in it and skills has been my passion for a long, long time (since I was substitute teaching middle school back in the 90s).

Julian: What got you so interested in skills to tell us a little bit about how that even like what, what was it that you think in skills back way back then.

Jamai: I was teaching in a low income school in Durham, North Carolina, and I always wanted to be a teacher. But instead I went into the finance world, and then was fortunate to get to retire from the finance world and be a stay-at-home mom. And I started teaching. And I just saw this, like, disconnect. I mean, after [being] in business and then you go into the classroom, especially with middle school kids, you're like, they are totally disconnected from the real world. And, and how are these kids really going to understand what jobs are and what careers are. And so I just started really thinking about that. Then, not long after, I got an opportunity to work for the North Carolina Tech Association. And that is really, thanks to the leader there, Joan Myers, who became my mentor and always will be. She really taught me about that connection between industry and education and I was hooked. I just believe so much in that connection being workforce-related. I also mention in my book I had a conversation with the governor's education advisor, about 15 years ago in New Mexico. And he and I had an argument about what college was for. And he was saying, it’s to teach you to be a better citizen and all that I'm like, no, it's not. It's about a job. And we just really got into it and agreed to disagree, but it's just my passion as you know.

Kaitlin: So building on that last point, Jamai, the theme of emphasizing skills over degrees is central to your book and much of your background and your work. We can feel the passion in your book on that topic. Can you speak a little bit to that theme and some of what you're what you've seen and more about where those beliefs have stemmed from?

Jamai: Julian knows Dr. Merrilea Mayo. And when I was in North Carolina, I stumbled across Merilea and I'm not going to get into that because people can buy my book and find out how.

Julian: Now that’s a teaser.

Jamai: Yeah, but, yeah, but Dr Mayo, when I first met with her, she was like skills are way more predictive than degrees and I'm like, really. And you know, I don't consider myself a researcher, but over the years of Innovate+Educate, I saw the value and the importance of the data and the statistics and all that. And it just made common sense to me once we started looking at the data. And so that's really when the journey began. It's kind of like as a stockbroker I was taught by my firm to look at the data. That was my background. I was raised to understand stocks and bonds. And, and you know, it was always about what the P/E ratio is, what the valuation is of a company. I mean it just made sense to me. So as soon as I learned that skills were more predictive for hiring over a degree, and learned what percentage didn't have degrees which people still freak out, especially people from high income families who don't have a clue about that, I was like, well, good Lord, this is just common sense. So I just started this march around common sense. You know, everybody should believe in skills and obviously it's been 15 years of beating that drum but now, Lord, it is everywhere. And then yesterday a new skills organization launched under the Rockefeller Foundation (right Julian, I don't know if you saw that). It's a combination of multiple foundations that are all around skills.

Julian: Yeah, and as you know we're big proponents of a skills based approach dating back to the work Kaitlin and I did about 10 years ago with College for America, the competency-based education model at Southern New Hampshire University, and it continued on through the mechatronics technician training program we developed with Amazon and Unmudl, an education startup. And skills are central to our current efforts. But I have concerns. And I guess for you, my question is, could this emphasis on skills, push people into jobs that don't lead them to a long-term sustainable career path, especially with the rapid technological advancements. So the question really is, how can we ensure that learners who have strong skills with no degree (because that's really a big part of what is being talked about), how can we ensure that those people are able to continuously make a living, and aren't just getting pushed into a job because they have skills that match with that entry level job?

Jamai: And that's the biggest problem we face. I think we're still, if you were, we're at the 30 yard line on the opponent's side right now. Everybody knows skills makes sense now. Now the problem is how do skills not undermine good jobs. Because it's really all about good jobs, and we're a long way from that. You know, our working Colorado led by Scott Fast is building out pathways for the Colorado workforce department, and really looking at the importance of those credentials and how much you make on those credentials. So I think what we have to really be careful of is that skills don't push people into only the low paying jobs. You know, CDL is a great example. I worked with a young man who didn't have any skills. He had been incarcerated for 13 years. And now, because of our scholarships and because of the skills training that he got and the CDL, he's making really, really good money. And his future is so bright. But it took, you know, really thinking with him about those areas you're interested in, and how do you make more money. So it's tough. We're still a long way from figuring it out, I think, from an industry perspective.

Julian: Jamai, you mentioned scholarships. Can you speak a little bit to what you're referencing there?

Jamai: Well, with what Innovate[+Educate] is doing. I know we used to be pretty large, but we are now a boutique consulting nonprofit. We take specific contracts related to our expertise, which is skills. Skills and workforce workforce boards. We're working with a couple of boards now. And so very specifically related to skills pathways, credential attainment, etc. Most of the funding that comes in. A large percentage of that, and all the sales proceeds from the book are going to scholarships, mainly in New Mexico. I mean, if somebody called me from somewhere else, but we've got plenty of need in New Mexico, and it's for scholarships for non credit. We're very, very focused on Santa Fe County and northern New Mexico. There's two community colleges. And we're really looking at the non credit side of the house where people need to get to work quickly. And they don't get the funding to be able to get those credentials. So that's our focus.

Julian: So, in other words, you're paving the way for what the government really needs to be doing.

Jamai: That’s right. Exactly. And I think that's the next big thing. Our President of Santa Fe Community College says that our biggest growth is non credit.

Kaitlin: Fascinating conversation. I feel like I have like 20 other questions. I'll go back to the question. So, and you began to mention this, Jamai, some examples of where you're seeing skills based approaches working well. But when you think about skills based approaches to educating, training, hiring, where do you see pockets or areas of success, and especially recognizing that, historically our legacy institutions haven't done this particularly well? Where are you seeing positive innovations in the space and potentially scalable ones?

Jamai: I’m not sure. I mean, the most interesting work to me is what's happening across states, as they're all dropping their degree requirements. And, you know, Byron Auguste is really involved in that. Shannon Block in Colorado is doing amazing work. Most of our work is in Colorado and New Mexico now. So Scott Fast is very involved in all that Colorado work. I think where it falls off is in how are they measuring skills. Just like the office of personnel management at our federal level. I called them twice and they said we'll get right back to you. They actually emailed and said we'll get back to you and they never did. Because I don't think there's an answer. It's like if we're going to do these skills. How do you do it? How do you really create a whole system change? We are doing this. We are launching an effort in Santa Fe. Our city was funded by National League of Cities and DOL for Good Jobs, Great Cities, and I'm on that task force. And we are launching the Go Educate platform, Julian. I know you're familiar with that. And we are launching that with the two northern colleges and we're going to get all the employers to load their jobs based on skills.

Kaitlin: Wow, that's exciting!

Jamai: It is exciting because it's not that big of a region. And then we're going to get all the community coaches loaded and try to map it. Right now, we're just starting it. It's going to take a lot, but I really would like to know who's doing it right and effectively because it's not easy.

Julian: So the question is, what are some practical steps that you believe that folks can take, listeners can take away from this podcast to begin to move in the right direction?

Jamai: First thing that just hit me is the Department of Labor should have a skills-based hiring conference. Why wouldn't they do that? Every concern our Department of Labor has pretty much affects the non-degreed person. So that's my number one. Wouldn't that be great? So that would be my first thing. What the states are doing with policy is great. Now, Shannon Block is another person that would be great to interview around this because she's working neck deep with the businesses in Colorado, and seeing all the technical assistance issues required and channels for the Markle Foundation and Skillful. Hopefully with the NGA [National Governors Association] and the work she's doing, you can really identify where those holes are because I do believe if the Department of Labor could identify some assessment tools that allowed this to occur and created some kind of waivers. You know, I mean, it's going to take some action. It just reminds me so much of when President Obama said we're going to release the Race to the Top and anybody that adopts this curriculum will get a chance at Race to the Top. Everybody adopted the common core, and I'm sitting in our legislature and we had adopted the common core. Nobody even knows how to implement the damn thing, but we adopted it because there was money. Right? So I think the federal government has a real opportunity here to be that bully pulpit. And so that's what I think it's going to take is money, resources, and some real policy. We still have a lot of random acts of skills-based hiring, which is great. I so appreciate it. But, but, you know, it's going to take, I believe, some real real policy change.

Julian: Well, you know, it's interesting because Kaitlin and I just did a piece, an article this past week about about the need for policy at the top to really break down the silos, because it all emanates from the feds, and there's a lot of money there now.

Jamai: It’s got to happen at the federal level.

Julian: And otherwise everyone else is kind of fighting the tide, right?

Jamai: That's right. So it's interesting. But I think we're closer to that shift than we have been ever. It's staring us in the face, and all the data's there, and all the reasons are there. Angela Jackson her podcast for Future Forward, which is her organization. I just listened, listened to and it was an amazing podcast on somebody that had been in prison and, you know, is now doing extremely well. And his training and how he got there and how he got that second chance. But I didn't know this. There's a third of people with college degrees, approximately. There's a third of people in our country that have some kind of record. And that includes DWIs. I did ask her that when I spoke to her yesterday. But still, that's a lot of our population that needs a second chance.

Kaitlin: You've covered a lot of ground. As we think about closing out our discussion, we'd love to hear a little bit more about how people can learn about your continued efforts and your work. And we will put all the information that you share in the podcast notes so that people know where to find more info.

Jamai: And you know that the reason I wrote that book is because it really has been my calling for the last 15 years. This has been my calling and my personal and professional journey all combined. And I didn't do it perfectly, but I always had my passion behind it. The book is the entire journey. It is data. It is the stats. And, it does help give scholarships if anyone wants to read it. And we also have a Kindle version, but, but all the data there if you just want to go to the data, that is the journey. Now what we're doing is being really selective on the work we take that we feel is meaningful to say policy in New Mexico and Colorado. Scott wanted to hunker down in his home state. I wanted to hunker down in my home state. Scott was with Accenture for many, many years and brings great, great expertise to our organization. It's going to be so exciting to see what happens in the next decade. And I am so appreciative of you, Julian. I remember over a decade ago when you and I sat in some conference and talked about how much our brains were aligned around this, and how we needed to stay in touch.

Julian: Well, life is full of inflection points and meeting the two of you both about 10 years ago were inflection points for me. It's been great to hear about some of your inflection points, culminating now with the book, and I encourage folks to get a copy. It's been such a pleasure talking with you as always and I look forward to our continued work together.

Jamai: Yeah, thank you and thanks to your listeners for caring about skills and the future of working and learning.

Kaitlin: Thank you so much, Jamai. That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Work Forces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our producer, Dustin Ramsdale. Work Forces is available on Apple, Amazon, Google and Spotify. Subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends. If you have interest in sponsoring this podcast, please contact us through the podcast notes.