Tackling Management Myths: Deming in Schools Case Study with John Dues (Part 7)

In Their Own Words

In this episode, John and Andrew unpack a few of the myths Dr. Deming identified that continue to destroy organizations from the inside. John explains how these myths also negatively impact schools and kids - and what to do instead.

0:00:02.0 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz, and I'll be your host as we continue our journey into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today, I'm continuing my discussion with John Dues, who is part of the new generation of educators striving to apply Dr. Deming's principles to unleash student joy in learning. The topic for today is, Management Myths that Keep Fooling Us. John, take it away.

0:00:28.3 John Dues: Andrew, it's good to be back, good to talk again. Yeah, I thought we could build on the last conversation, which unpacked these two education reports. One that had a seminal impact for the last 40 years called A Nation at Risk, and another Sandia Report that we talked about that has a much lesser known. And I was thinking what comes out of some of the reports often as a shake-up, and then there's various ideas about what to do about the crisis outlined in this case. But I think, a lot of the times, those management practices have the opposite of the intended effect. And I think... One of the things I was thinking about is that Dr. Deming, maybe his most radical idea that he put forth is that any outcome that we see within a system, like a system of education, is the result of more than the skills and efforts of the individuals who work within that organization. And what he would say is that most of the performance differences observed between individuals are generated by these complex and dynamic, adaptable systems, and workers are only one part of that system.

0:01:49.8 JD: And I think understanding that sort of core idea of Deming is one of the ways that we can start to move away from the common management and maybe understanding those management myths is maybe the most important part of understanding the new philosophy that Deming was sort of putting forth. I think one of the things that I learned in watching some of his videos from his famous four-day seminars is that he often began those seminars by saying, management is living in an age of mythology, and even though he was saying that throughout the 1980s and even into the early 90s, before his death in 1993. I think that idea applies just as well today across numerous sectors, including education, as it did when he was saying it 30 or 40 years ago, I think it applies the education, applies to government, applies to industry.

0:02:52.6 JD: And what he meant by the age of mythology, at least my interpretation of it, is that leaders in these various industries basically operate according to these assumptions and these myths, and these myths are harmful to our organization. And so when he talked about the transformation process, part of the transformation process is understanding these myths and then moving away from them, actively trying to move away from them. So I thought we could talk about a few of those myths today and unpack those myths, where they originated and what were they are and then what to do.

0:03:29.3 AS: Great, great idea. And I remember he would say something like, how could they know? They did their best efforts, that's all that they have. Who came up with the idea of rating and ranking? Someone just... And then you realize people just may make things up ultimately and then they stick, not based on science or something like that. Sometimes the science creeps in there, but most of the time, based upon emotion. You jarred my thinking process when you're talking about the role of an individual in a system.

0:04:07.4 AS: And I was just thinking about how the beauty of the individual is that the individual is malleable. We're malleable, we're able to be contorted. Whereas when you install a particular piece of machinery that only has... Can produce so many units or such level of quality, it's a very rigid part of the overall system. And I was just thinking how, one of the reasons probably why we're always chasing after the individual, despite the fact that the very, very rigid machine over there is what's setting the ultimate specifications of the output of this is because the human is so easily manipulated. Well, put them over here and we'll do this, we'll do that, we'll start early, go late, try this, try that, whereas with the machine, you just have a lot less flexibility. And so you just made me think about that as I was listening to you talk...

0:05:02.3 JD: Yeah, that brings a good point. One, I think some prescient on your part is you mentioned the myth of rating and ranking, which is definitely one of the myths that I wanna get to. And I think you talk about machines versus workers. I think a couple of things I think of there, one is our organizational systems have become increasingly complex as we moved from the farm field to more of the industrial age, and maybe even the post-industrial age now. And who bought the machine? I think that's a lot what Deming was talking about is who designed the system, who had control over the system. If the machine is a major part of the process, who designed the machine and who bought it? Probably not the individual workers on the line. And yet, they were held responsible, or maybe even still today, held responsible for the results when they didn't design or pick the machine themselves. So I think that's a really good place to start. And I think that also brings up like, where did these management myths originate? Because if we go back a few hundred years, I think there's probably the lack of complexity, there's the...

0:06:26.8 JD: Mostly what we were doing is managing the work of... Managing our own work, I think of the farmer in the field or the craftsman in their workshop, is that sort of first line of management. And then as things got a little more complex, they're management by directing. So think of the craftsman taking on an apprentice, but it's still a pretty simple system and it's the manager, in this case, the master is directing the apprentice directly. And then you get the Industrial Revolution and you get this sort of third wave of management thinking... And here I'm thinking about management by results. And this is numerical quotas come into play, this idea, this common quip of, "I don't care how you do it, just get it done" type thing. And I think this is third generation management, and I think that's the dominant sort of paradigm of the 20th century. I think that probably paradigm in a lot of ways continues to the present day. But I think what Dr. Deming was a proponent of was this sort of fourth generation management, which was "management by method." So he was calling on, especially leaders, management of organizations to work with people on these methods rather than judging them on results, to your point about rating and ranking.

0:07:57.1 JD: And I think that's sort of a big part of the Deming philosophy, is to move from just rating and ranking people and thinking about instead, what are the methods people... What are the processes people are using within our systems to get the work done?

0:08:13.1 AS: Yeah, one other thing it just made me think about is that when you manage people, let's say in the US, people don't wanna be micro-managed, they want... They like to be told, "Well, you figure out how you're gonna do it and then do it." And let me take responsibility for that, right? So it is a bit seductive to forget about the methods and just focus on the individual and say, "Make it happen." And there are times that, that can be a valuable tool, a valuable way of managing when there's just so much going on, but also juxtaposing that to the typical manager in Thailand, which I'm very familiar with, they don't wanna be told that.

0:09:01.3 AS: It isn't necessarily their desire to be independent in their work and to originate the method. There's many managers here that really appreciate the boss that says, "Here's how I want you to get there," or "how do you think we should get there?" And that there's a much bigger discussion on that, maybe it's because there was less of an industrialization over the years, and that that's a newer thing compared to where America is at, but I know that my experience with management here is that managers do appreciate that concept of, "Let's look at the method of how you're gonna get there."

0:09:46.1 JD: Yeah. I think method is important, and I think one of the first myths that I was thinking about is, now label these as we go, but I was thinking of this myth of best practices, which it wasn't exactly what you were talking about, but it sort of made me think of where do the methods come from that we are working with it in whatever sector we're working with.

0:10:12.3 AS: So is this myth number one?

0:10:12.8 JD: Yeah, myth number one.

0:10:16.8 AS: Boom.

0:10:17.3 JD: Myth of best practice, so I think you teed us up really well. And this is an area that I've done some deep thinking on this because this has been a very... With all of these myths, you gotta be careful. You gotta really think about what it is that Dr. Deming was saying. And I'm not... So I'm not saying when I say myth of best practices, I'm not saying don't go out and study what other people are doing and try to bring the best of that to your organization. I don't think that's what Dr. Deming was saying. But I think that you gotta be really careful when you label something a best practice, and then try to incorporate it into your organization.

0:10:58.9 JD: And I was thinking in my role over the last two decades or so, maybe decade and a half, I've been fortunate because I've been a part of an informal network of schools and I've been able to sort of leverage that network, and go on many, many school visits probably many than the typical educator, even one that's in a leadership position. Dozens, I counted them up a couple of years ago over the last decade and a half, I think I've gone on over 120 school visits, and that's all types of different schools. Traditional public schools, public charter schools, private schools, and all over the United States, in South Midwest where I'm based out of here in Columbus, the Western United States to northeastern parts of the country. And I think on one hand, these visits have been extremely beneficial. I was able to observe classrooms and school practices in these many different places.

0:12:00.3 JD: I was able to speak with teachers, building administrators, school district leaders about the many challenges they're facing, how they're counteracting those challenges and the solutions they've developed with. And I think I've always tried to pay very careful attention to what context is this particular school operating under - what's their student demographics? What resources do they have both financially and from a human resource standpoint? Where are they situated? Are they in a city or in a town? Are they in a rural area? Some of the factors associated with those different practices. So I pay attention to those.

0:12:45.4 JD: And every time you go into a school, each school has its own culture, it has its own feel. But I think that... Well, I have this appreciation of the context, I think as I've thought more about these various practices, I've grown more skeptical. I think there's really an under-appreciation for these contextual elements within which these best practices often operate. There's... I remember hosting my own school visit and we, in our own schools, in our elementary schools, we have these carpets where kids come to do reading, read-alouds.

0:13:29.5 JD: And after one of these school visits, one of the superintendent said, we're gonna go buy these carpets and we're gonna do this too. These carpets are great in the classrooms and I don't know how it worked out, but I got the sense that there was sort of like, there's a whole system, a whole set of processes and procedures that are set up. It's just not having the carpet in the classroom, it's how it's used, it's how the kids move to the carpets, it's what's happened once you get to the carpet. You can sort of under-appreciate all of the sort of thought went into something as simple as the read aloud carpet that you see in a classroom.

0:14:07.2 JD: And I think there's this part of about context, and then there's just also a part about, is this practice... Does it have a sound research-base as well? So you're looking at both of those things. And I think in education, those best practices, often the research base is very, very thin. And then there's this whole other side of things where you really have to understand what is the context, the different variables that went into making that practice work. It may have been something that unfolded over four or five years, and you just can't pull it out of that school and then drop it into your own setting. So I think one of the things that Deming said about best practices is "to copy is to invite disaster." And so I think there, he's not saying, "Don't go study other organizations," but it's not as simple as, "Oh, I see this curriculum or this teaching practice or this method in one place. We're gonna do that tomorrow." It's just not that simple. So I think this is, like I said, one of these myths that I've come to appreciate how important in the context that they're operating under is before you can take it to your own school or network.

0:15:20.0 AS: Yeah, a great way of thinking about this one is, imagine that you take a General Motors car. Let's take a, I don't know what's fancy these days, but let's say a Cadillac as an example. And we say, here is the design for the Cadillac and here's everything you need to know, all the parts and everything, and you deliver that to Toyota, and say, "You have a car factory, so build this car." What you don't realize is that in particularly with the Toyota production system, that the whole production operation at every company is built around an infrastructure or a context, as you said, that sets the stage for how that is done.

0:16:29.4 AS: And therefore, things are not interchangeable. And so if your idea is, I'm just gonna go around to these 120 different schools and look for best practices and bring them in, it's like an amalgamation of unnaturally developed things. And also the other thing that it made me think about is that the whole point of PDSA is that you're working in your own organization to build a deeper understanding of a particular problem and solution. And when you repeat that process, you are also building a unique competitive advantage. Now, whether that in, let's say, in the world of business, that competitive advantage may be kept secret or not necessarily shared - in the world of education, it may be made public, but it's very hard to duplicate something that has been constructed internally through process of learning. And so just putting amalgamation of different things onto a body or onto a facility doesn't make the combination of those something great.

0:17:35.7 JD: Yeah, and I think of, what's the idea of the day? For schools coming out of the pandemic currently, 'cause the impacts of the pandemic and learning loss and those things are still sort of obviously being felt by schools, and we're seeing that ramification show up and in test scores and other measures. So one of the things that has been sort of promulgated as a silver bullet is high dosage tutoring, which means like a significant amount of tutoring happening for an individual student or a small group of students on a regular basis where what happened three or four times a week. And you see this in education publications, you see this policy makers and even legislatures are pushing this idea.

0:18:33.3 JD: But the problem is, while the research base for that particular intervention may be strong somewhere and under some set of conditions, the question for a practitioner is, well, who are these tutors? How will these tutors be trained here? Who is training these tutors? What curriculum are the tutors using? What financial resources are there to pay these tutors and to acquire the curriculum? Where in the school day is that going to happen? What are kids that are going to high-dosage tutoring gonna miss in the school day to be able to attend that tutoring? If it's not happening during the school day, if it's happening before or after school, how will kids get home from that tutoring?

0:19:22.0 JD: Who's providing the management of the tutors? How are those tutors hired? How are those tutors replaced when they inevitably will turn over? I could go on and on and on and on and on and on about these things, well, someone tells me that as an educator leader that, yes, for sure high-dosage tutoring is the best practice that you should drop into your organization, those questions remain unanswered and those questions are actually the thing that will actually make the practice come to fruition and work or not, and oftentimes, when these different ideas are being thrown about, none of those questions have been answered. And so I think we do this over and over for certain in the school world that I'm in.

0:20:10.5 AS: It reminds me of that old time song that maybe our older listeners and viewers would remember, "Who takes care of the caretaker's daughter when the caretaker is busy taking care?"

[laughter]

0:20:22.9 AS: So who's taking care of all those different things behind the scenes and putting them all together? So that's a great one to help us realize that it's good to understand best practices, it's good to go out and survey and get them and consider them, but then what really matters is how do you take best practices that you see, narrow them down, the one that you think will fit in your system and then develop it slowly and steadily, so it becomes a permanent improvement in your system? I think that's what you're getting at. Would that be right?

0:21:02.4 JD: Yeah, that's exactly right. So I think of something that may come to us through something like a randomized controlled trial, like the effectiveness of high-dosage tutoring, I think looking at RCTs or other similar... That's sort of the gold standard research. But even...

0:21:20.4 AS: RCTs for the listener is Randomized Control Trials?

0:21:25.0 JD: Randomized Controlled Trial, a study where people are randomly assigned to groups and then there's a treatment for one group and not a treatment for another group, there's no real differences between those two groups, and then you see if there's an effect. I don't think there's a lot of the studies that sort of rise to the gold standard RCT, there are other types of studies in education for sure, but either way, I think that's to the difference between when an ideas come through a randomized controlled trial where it's worked somewhere for some group under some set of conditions.

0:22:03.5 JD: Versus the Plan-Do-Study Act cycle that we've talked about, I think reading the research base can give you a starting place, give you some indication of the types of interventions or the types of curricula, or the types of practices that may work, but the Plan-Do-Study Act cycle allows you to sort of take an idea in your context and try to get it to work under the very conditions under where the idea or the practice would ultimately have to be working for it to be effective in your organization.

0:22:36.4 JD: So I think that's the two differences. Those two things, the RCT and the PDSA cycles can be complementary, and I think that's how I actually think of those two things, but you can't just... Can't force these best practices into contexts that they weren't designed to be in. And you gotta figure out all those questions that I talked about with any idea, I use high-dosage tutoring, but those are the types of questions that you can start to... If you're gonna try that in your organization, you can start to hash that out through the PDSA cycle, so I may say... Instead of saying, we're doing high-dosage tutoring in our school district, what I may say is, "What would it take to provide targeted tutoring to one student for one week?" I'm gonna plan that, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna study the results and I'm gonna act on it.

0:23:31.8 JD: And in that one week, what you may find is a whole host of things in your context that you did not consider where you can't even get this to work with one kid, [chuckle] let alone a 1000 kids, or if you're in a bigger district, 10 or 15 or 20,000 kids and even those kids, even though they're in your district, they might not even be all operating under a similar context 'cause they're in different buildings with different adults and those types of things.

0:24:01.4 JD: So things become much harder when it comes to implementation, when you start to think in that way, "How would I get this thing to work with one student?" Come do that with me and you see the challenges person pushing high-dosage tutoring and then you can extrapolate that out to 1,000 kids or like I said, 10,000 kids, and you can start to see how this stuff falls apart pretty quickly in practice.

0:24:27.9 AS: Well, I think that's a great description of this first myth of best practices. So what myth number two?

0:24:37.4 JD: This is the myth I call myth of the hero educator. I think we latch on the hero stories in all kinds of walks of life. Hero stories stretch back to ancient times and they capture our attention for good reason. Ya know, they have these archetypes and we can identify with those archetypes, but when it comes to education, I think... I'm thinking about outlier educators with some type of... Some center of exceptional and rare talents, and I think one of the best known movies that captures this from an education perspective is Stand and Deliver. You may...

0:25:22.4 AS: That's what thinking about when you... I couldn't remember the name of it, but I remember that movie.

0:25:27.5 JD: Yeah, it's a prototypical hero teacher, biopic. It's Jaime Escalante in Los Angeles, basically, the movie depicts him leading his 18 inner city math students from basic math to calculus in just two years time, but then when you actually... Jaime Escalante is a real person, he's a real teacher in California at Garfield High School, but when you go study what actually happened, it's very different from... The movie is very different from what actually happened in real life, so when you look at what he actually did...

0:26:08.9 AS: Funny that.

0:26:10.7 JD: Oh yeah, can you believe it? But we latch on and say, "Oh, if he could do it... Or this is based on a true story. We can do this in two years." And what actually happened was that Escalante, the teacher, it took him eight years to build this math program that's depicted in this movie, he completely revamped the Math Department at his high school, he had to start by convincing the principal to raise the sort of math requirements at the school in general. Then he designed this whole pipeline of courses to prepare students for what they ultimately were trying to get to is AP Calculus and then he hand-selected top teachers to instruct those courses along the pipeline, and he even went to the junior high schools that fed into his high school and convinced them to offer algebra to eighth graders.

0:27:07.8 JD: So he's actually... What is actually really doing is setting up this math system basically that hadn't been there before, so he's actually thinking like Deming and setting up a system of pipeline that makes sense, and none of Escalante's actual students moved from basic math one year to AP Calculus, the following year, that's a complete misnomer, instead, it was the sort of system transformation that unfolded through the cooperation of obviously numerous educators and students over this eight-year period.

0:27:42.3 JD: Now, putting that the side, it didn't happen like you didn't move is still a pretty amazing story, whether it took two years or eight years, he set up this pretty amazing system. So I think most of us are not gonna rival Escalante and his tenacity and the results that he got with his students, his results are so far outside the norm, they made a movie about this guy. So they made the movie for a good reason, but I think my take away and thinking about this myth of the hero educator is that knowledge about variation, this component that we've talked about, part of Deming System of Profound Knowledge. Knowledge variation... Knowledge about variation tells us that the vast majority of educators perform within the enabling and constraining forces of an organization system.

0:28:35.9 JD: So most teachers, most principals, most superintendents, do not have Escalante's tenacity to set up a brand new system. Most of us just don't have that in us, but we create these mythologies around heroes like this hero teacher, they're embellished, they leave out important details, and I think these hero educators do exist, but they make up a tiny fraction of the educators in the United States, and same thing on the flip side, teachers, especially in the last decade or so, have caught a lot of slack are often blamed for test results and other sort of ills of the education system, but what I've found, and I think what the research bears out is that on the other side of the hero spectrum, those that are unfit, that really shouldn't be in front of a classroom of students, that's also a very tiny fraction of the educator workforce.

0:29:37.7 JD: And that the point I would take away is that all of this points to the fact that it's really the system where the vast majority of the improvement potential lies. So you get this hero educator myth, it makes for good drama in Hollywood, but it's a really, really poor strategy for educational transformation and improvement.

0:30:00.9 JD: We sort of go back to these myths, whether it's best practices, "Why don't you guys do it like them? They can do that over there, you make it work in your system. Well, if this guy in California can do this, why can't you do it over here?" But it's really not about the individuals, it's about creating these strong systems where the vast majority of people that are sort of in that... A majority bucket, not the heroes, not those that probably shouldn't be in front of students, how could we make the systems work for those folks? I think that's sort of my take away from that myth.

0:30:42.2 AS: Yeah, in fact... So a couple of things I was thinking about. The first thing is, I bet you if we go there and look at what's the progress in what he did, that in some cases, you could see it's all gone, because some opposing person who was upset by it or didn't agree with it, or didn't like the idea of one person standing out to that extent knocked it down. I watched the education... There was a master's in marketing program here in Thailand at one of the universities that was, I would say, world class. The lady who ran it was amazing, and what she and another guy built out of it was really about 30 years of continuous improvement. They just kept improving.

0:31:30.6 AS: And so it really was an impressive program and there was a new dean of the school that came in and he didn't like it, and he didn't like that person, and he basically, between him and his forces, knocked it out and destroyed it, and it's completely gone, and that was an interesting example that I saw. So the first point is that, is it really lasting improvement? Well, we have to admire the people who have so much tenacity, and we definitely wanna get everything that we can to improve the system, but just that one person rising up does not mean that the system's gonna necessarily be improved.

0:32:12.6 AS: So that's the first thing I thought about. The second thing I thought about was, one of the amazing defining qualities of McDonalds is everywhere you go, and I've eaten McDonalds everywhere in the world, basically. Now, we can debate about the quality of the food, but I would say that the consistency is amazing, and it's done with... That back in America when I was young, it was done with 16-year-olds on summer break, and it was done because they continually improved the system to make it so that the worker could deliver that consistent quality, and any new idea had to be implemented... Had to be able to be implemented worldwide in that system or else it wasn't gonna get into the system. So those are two things that I was just thinking about. How do those relate to this myth of the hero educator?

0:33:10.7 JD: Yeah, I think those are spot on, and I think it could be... When you build a system like Jaime Escalante did in his school, I think it could be drove...The undoing could be nefarious, a new principal could come in that just doesn't like it sort of comparable to what you were talking about, or probably what happens in a lot of cases where an amazing system has been built but it's completely reliant on that hero, once Jaime Escalante retires, it's very possible that that system then collapsed and not because anybody was working against it necessarily, but it could have been just without him and he was such an important part of it. Which would probably speak to what type of system was set up in the first place. Now, without him sort of pulling the levers, then it's very possible, but that would be enough in and of itself for that system not to live on to this day.

0:34:12.8 AS: Now, I can imagine an educator or an executive administrative, he's like, "What are you guys talking about? That was my only hope is to find this hero that could take us to the next level, and now you're just saying, no, no." I'm just curious, thinking about it from that perspective.

0:34:34.1 JD: Well, it's better because I think this is better because it doesn't rely on the hero. I think the same... I think a group of people, certainly have to be dedicated, you have to wanna change the system, but a group of people putting in place a strong process, I think is the point of all of this. That that's really what we wanna do. Do you need strong leadership? Sure, sure you do. But it's necessary, but not sufficient to building systems, you need a group of people working together and putting strong processes in place, processes that are strong enough, whether an individual or individuals over time moving on as they are inevitably really gonna do that the system or that set of processes remains intact. And I think that's what a system like Toyota, who you talked about earlier, that's what they've been able to do.

0:35:40.3 JD: People have changed over the years since the Toyota production system was put in place, but a lot of those processes, of course, they're continually being improved, but they put the process in place that wasn't reliant on any single individual to remain in, say, the CEO position and to ensure that that process or those set of processes would continue over time, that's the whole point of this, so you don't wanna be reliant on a single sort of hero educator or a hero engineer or whatever it is, you want the process... The system be strong enough that it continues to work even after that person retires or moves on to another position or whatever.

0:36:22.9 AS: So we've got two myths here. First a myth of best practices, and then the myth of the hero educator. And in wrapping up, let me just briefly summarize. So in the idea of the best practices, the main point that you're pointing out is be careful about trying to build an amalgamation of best practices, you have to understand where that best practice was developed and what was the context that it was developed under, and then you have to think about how that best practice could potentially fit into your system, and that may be the best idea here is rather than trying to just pull together a bunch of best practices to think about one or two new ideas that could be built into the system to improve the system of education. That's number one.

0:37:16.3 AS: And the myth of the hero educator is just to remember that the outlier educators, both on the great side and on the poor side, are very small group of people, very... And so to think that we can create lasting change from the power and energy of, let's say that really exceptional person is probably making a wrong bet and it's better to then think about, "How can we take from the energy of this person and implement the things that they're doing in such a way that we can build them as some lasting improvement in the system of education so that it doesn't just disappear when that man or woman disappears?" Would that be a summary? Or anything you would add to that?

0:38:09.0 JD: Yeah, it's a great summary. I think the only thing I'd add to the best practices is coming up out of a Nation at Risk, many, many times the reforms were like, if you just do X practice, whatever that thing was, standards or a certain curriculum, there's that under appreciation of context over and over and so I think the PDSA, the Plan-Do-Study Act cycle is a powerful driver for testing ideas in your context on a small scale. First, before moving on to a larger and larger scale until you get to full system-wide implementation. So I think your summary is perfect, I'll just add in the power of that PDSA as a part of figuring out what works in your particular system, in your particular context.

0:38:50.8 JD: Yeah, and with the hero educator, you mentioned you got the hero educator on one side, the positive side, those that probably shouldn't be in front of the classroom with kids on the other side, tiny fractions, a lot of what came out of a Nation at Risk, especially maybe from 2000 on targeted individual teacher performance, thinking that you could get rid of the bad teachers. But again, it's a tiny fraction of the educator workforce, and even if you did that, it's not gonna make a difference because the vast majority of people are in this sort of middle ground that needs strong leadership and strong systems, if we're gonna transform schools.

0:39:35.9 AS: So to wrap up here, we have management myths that keep fooling us, we've got myth number one, best practices and myth number two, hero educator. And we've got more myths to come up in our next episode, which I'm really looking forward to. I think these have sparked discussions and thinking about how to create lasting change and improvement in education. John, on behalf of everyone on the Deming Institute, I wanna thank you again for this discussion. And for listeners, remember, go to deming.org to continue your journey, this is your host Andrew Stotz, and I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming. "People are entitled to joy in work.”